Evidence of meeting #13 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cuts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That is all the time we have. We were just slightly over. We will move on to the next speaker.
Ms. Yelich is next.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK
Thank you.
I, too, will quote from John Baird, who said we are focusing on the national role because provinces and municipalities are best placed to provide support at the local, regional, and provincial levels.
I wanted to quote that because in our province we have 1,000 children in the city of Saskatoon who are not enrolled in school. These are children who should be in elementary school. It's a huge problem. I think we also have to address our education, which puts that in the provincial role, the earlier years, which is not to discount that it's also important to mention that this is a huge problem not only in Saskatoon but also in the city of Regina. I just wanted to mention that perhaps we have to start thinking about why these children aren't in school and addressing those issues.
I also wanted to mention to you, Sheila, about the point you made on raising the exemption for the working poor, that we do have the employment credit to help the amount of income that can be earned without paying tax. It's up to $500 a year, and it will be rising in January, so there are some benefits in our last budget that specifically address the working poor, as he said.
We are also in consultation with the provinces and the territories, seeking to identify some measures to improve the incentives to work for low-income Canadians.
You talked about families and the working poor. The goods and services tax does help; I know lots of parents who really appreciate it when they have their children in things like skating lessons in small community centres and rec centres. They all benefit from any reduction in any type of tax. Even as small as some people might think a penny is, it does add up when you're trying to run community centres and you're trying to put your children in extra events. I just wanted to make those comments.
When you talk about apprentices, I want you to elaborate a little bit. You said that many people drop out of apprentice programs. What would be your reason for that? Are you saying that the employers aren't doing their part, or the employees?
Recognizing credentials is a really huge issue. How do you get it, when there are so many governing bodies deciding the qualifications to come into Canada to work in their province? In some cases, it's the professions or it's businesses or certain companies are trying to seek engineers. That's an example that was brought to me recently. They had lots of problems. Every province has different jurisdictional problems. How do you overcome that, when in fact it is governed by your own professions? Canada is a big country. I think Australia does have a national recognition body, and we are working on that in some manner here, but I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that.
I have one more question to you, Sheila. Did you ever do an impact analysis for small businesses on raising the minimum wage to $10 an hour? They seem to be hit the hardest when the minimum wage goes up. Small businesses in Canada make up a great deal of our economic growth. Is there any sort of analysis or any sort of statement from them?
12:10 p.m.
Director, National Council of Welfare
Thank you.
Very briefly, yes, in response to your comment about some of the tax exemptions and some of the measures that may help the working poor, certainly, as you've said, any small bit helps, and they're in the right direction. I think the council's preoccupation now is that while all of those small bits help, what is really going to be needed to meet the challenges of low-income people for the future is a much more comprehensive look so that those measures and others can be built together in a much more comprehensive system. I'm also encouraged that there is consultation going on between the federal and the provincial and territorial governments around some of these issues, because that, to us, is critical as well.
On raising the minimum wage, the interesting thing here is that we have found no evidence whatsoever to suggest that it's going to have these scary effects on jobs that people keep talking about. There is evidence in the United Kingdom, for example, that we really don't have much to worry about. They had absolutely no minimum wage. They have brought it in and have not seen the effects that people here seem to worry about. The council has looked at this kind of thing over the years and from different perspectives. There are different ways you can deal with the working poor, but it just seems fundamentally wrong to think about having a system where somebody can work full-time, a full year, and not meet the poverty level. That just does not make sense in a society that's trying to be productive and competitive anywhere.
12:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Centre for the Study of Living Standards
I'll respond to your question on apprenticeship. In addition to having a low completion rate in apprentices' trades, it's actually falling as well, which is pretty serious.
We don't really have a definitive understanding of the reasons behind that. There's a national apprenticeship survey in the field right now to look at this issue. It could be linked to the fact that there's not a lot of economic incentive for an apprentice to finish. The wage of a completer might not be that much higher than a non-completer. It could be that the curriculum is not particularly relevant to the apprentice, or it could be that the apprentice doesn't have the literacy skills to do the in-school portion of the apprenticeship.
So there are a lot of reasons there, but certainly from the point of view of employability, it's much greater if you have your ticket, if you have finished the program and passed, than if you don't.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That's it for time. We're going to move on to the second round.
Ms. Brown.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
First, you've been thanked for coming. I want to go further and thank you for the work you do for Canadians every day that you go to work. And I want to say that I'm sorry you have had this slap in the face to the work you do, by people who don't understand its value either to social cohesion or to the future of the economy and the productivity of the Canadian economy.
I'm going to suggest to you that you do not waste time trying to figure out the logic or reason behind this. There is none. Asking yourself why a neo-conservative government has made cuts to the social programs that affect the poor is like asking yourself, why does an alcoholic drink? The answer is the same. They cannot help themselves. So don't waste time trying to figure out why. I think you should join the opposition parties in getting angry about it and mobilizing people to get angry about it, because concerning these cuts, it's very fortuitous that you happen to be our witnesses today. You are showing us in a very clear way that it is the most vulnerable in our society who are feeling the pinch from this.
I used to head up an agency that served clients such as yours, so I know the feeling when you are slapped by the government, because essentially they are saying, “Forget about your clients and the work you do,” whereas I'm saying to you that the majority of the members of Parliament, both in the Senate and in the House, do not feel that way and value your work.
The parliamentary secretary from Saskatchewan, I must say, suggests that the working income tax benefit of $500 a year is going to be a help. Well, if you divide it by 52 weeks, you know how minuscule it is. The GST reduction has the least benefit for the poor, and the tax deduction for skating lessons that she suggested might be good, but you and I know the kind of people you're helping don't have enough money for skating lessons in the first place. So all these little tax deductions are directed at the fairly healthy middle class, but not the poor, who are slipping further and further behind every day.
I want to go to Ms. Regehr. You say to raise the federal minimum wage. We don't have one. It has been abolished. So we have to re-establish it first. You're suggesting $10 an hour and raising the basic tax exemption for low-income workers. The problem with that is that when you raise the basic tax exemption, it affects all workers, because tax law works that way. What would you suggest we raise the basic tax exemption to? The Conservative government just raised it, just by a bit, but--
12:20 p.m.
Director, National Council of Welfare
We don't have the capacity to run the numbers to actually give you a number. What the council is interested in is just looking at whatever means might be available through the tax system to assist low-income workers, whether it's through a generalized tax exemption or some other form of tax exemption, or something that allows those with the lowest income—
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON
I understand.
Have you asked the Caledon Institute what mechanism they would suggest, if you don't have the capacity to do it?
12:20 p.m.
Director, National Council of Welfare
We've been talking to Caledon and to quite a number of partners as part of our push for a national anti-poverty strategy. What we're trying to do first is get it on the agenda, make everybody aware that we really need to look at this on a national basis across this country, and get everybody to participate in a very consultative way in helping find the right solutions.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON
In your third recommendation you talk about benefits for poor workers, particularly those who work part-time in two or three jobs, etc. Have you thought of a mechanism to make that happen—because essentially it has to be employers who do it—or do you think the federal government should pass a law suggesting that all workers get benefits?
12:20 p.m.
Director, National Council of Welfare
It's an area in which we're open to suggestion and to looking at the different ways it can be approached. One of the studies I would refer people to was done in Toronto. It's MISWAA, or “Modernizing Income Security for Working-Age Adults”, which was done by a whole collective of people that included employers such as the Toronto Dominion Bank. There are some good recommendations in there to start looking at.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Bonnie Brown Liberal Oakville, ON
I would like to close, Mr. Chairman, by again reassuring these people that they are not alone. They have advocates right here on the Hill, not in the form of lobbyists but of people who take up the seats in the House of Commons and the Senate.
Thank you very much.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you, Ms. Brown.
We're going to move to Mr. Lessard, for five minutes, please.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Mr. Chairman, I will ask the first question, while my colleague, Mr. Ouellet, will ask the second.
I will be brief. You draw a link with the fact that the social safety net, part of which consists of the employment insurance system, has become much less effective over the years. This is a factor that contributes to greater poverty among families.
In that, we agree with you, for the most part.
You also report to the Government of Canada. How does the Canadian government receive your report?
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
12:20 p.m.
Director, National Council of Welfare
The council provides advice to the minister in a number of ways. Sometimes we meet with her. The other way we provide information is to publish the two regular reports we publish. They're basically statistical reports with some indication of recommendations in them. One is Poverty Profile, which provides the most comprehensive look at the dimensions of poverty in this country. The second is Welfare Incomes. In both of those publications, which we provide to the minister and to the public, this year the emphasis has been on a recommendation for a national anti-poverty strategy.
To date the council members and the chair have not had the opportunity to meet with the minister since that recommendation was put forward, and we haven't received other responses. The council is meeting again in October. We hope there may be some opportunity to engage the minister on this.
12:25 p.m.
Bloc
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
I imagine, Ms. Regehr, when you say that 5 million people live under the poverty line, that you are including children. So we are talking about 5 million people out of a population of 32 million. If this is true, this is a very high and scary figure.
I am the Bloc Québécois critic on homelessness. I travelled around Canada this summer to meet with the homeless. The homeless cost the health care system 40% more than stable people who have housing do. We believe that welfare recipients also cost the health care system more money since they have more trouble putting food on the table, finding housing, and so forth.
Do you know how much more money the state spends to support those 5 million individuals living under the poverty line and receiving welfare, and to provide them with health care?
I also want to ask Ms. DesBrisay a question.
I represent the riding of Brome—Missisquoi, where there is a minority anglophone community. Contrary to popular belief, minorities in Canada are not always francophones. Much of this minority lives in poverty. Illiteracy is also a major issue.
I personally know people involved in literacy work. Previously, funding for literacy came directly from the federal government. We are talking about an English-speaking minority in Quebec. Obviously, cuts in literacy funding are due to cuts to the GST. A group of people pay that GST, but another group of individuals is being subjected to the cuts. The same people, the poor, are always the ones being put in a difficult situation.
Did the government consult you before announcing those cuts?
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Movement for Canadian Literacy
I'd have to say no. We've been concerned over the past year and a half because we saw that there was a movement within the federal government, even before this government was in power--it's part of a movement in society--to focus more on competitiveness. We feel that the most vulnerable are increasingly being left behind.
The work that literacy organizations do is often with people who don't become employable in three or six months. It takes a little longer. At the same time that they're working on their workplace skills, they're also learning things about parenting, getting more self-confidence, and all that.
So we've been concerned about a movement that increasingly looks as if it's going to leave people behind. We have spoken up about this from time to time, but we were always told that literacy is firmly on the government's agenda.
We were hoping to hear an announcement that the government would move on the recommendation made previously by this committee to work with the provinces and territories to develop a plan. So we were totally shocked by these cuts. I don't even know if the provinces and territories were consulted. They depend on this funding.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That's all the time we have.
Madame Savoie, you have five minutes.
12:25 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This morning, one of the reports stated that low-income earners were more likely to have precarious employment, live under the poverty line and have more difficulty accessing training or other education to improve their situation.
Perhaps Mr. Sharpe could tell us what could be done at the federal level to eliminate obstacles to learning, while respecting provincial jurisdiction. You said that fewer and fewer apprentices were finishing their training.
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Centre for the Study of Living Standards
I recommend a fairly general policy, such as an income tax credit on employment. This would give workers a subsidy. For example, it could be approximately $3 or $4 per hour for all hours worked.
This kind of policy, which is in place in the United States, has been fairly effective in reducing poverty. In Canada, the Department of Finance briefly touched upon a similar policy in a previous budget but it has not yet been developed.
In short, I think that a tax credit on employment would be a beneficial policy.