Human Resources Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

I have a quick question for you, Mr. Cardozo. In terms of the national qualifications framework and foreign credentials, are there any countries that do something similar to that right now that you'd recommend as a model to us in Canada?

We talk about our foreign credentials program and getting that set up, and you guys talk about doing not only that, but going a little further in terms of recognizing qualifications and setting that kind of framework up. Do you have any thoughts on that? Are there any countries that are doing this well or doing this already?

[Andrew Cardozo]

From what I understand, the national government of Australia has addressed the issue and has something like an agency of this kind. So that's one of the areas to look at.

What I'd like to do is send you a report that we just put out called Who Does What in FCR?, in foreign credential recognition. It's a fairly brief report, but it outlines the vast number of agencies, governments, non-governmental agencies, and educational institutions that are currently involved in the process.

I think if this new agency starts with just being a referral service, that will be a huge help. If it goes on and does more, there are those sorts of opportunities. But given the web of players across the country, if there's any system that can make it easier for the newcomer, I think that'll be a huge help.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Swinwood, go ahead, please.

[Paul Swinwood]

I have just a quick comment on that one. I have a staff member in Lisbon today at the world meeting about internationally educated professionals and their transfer, and about how people are recognized and their credentials are recognized. So we have some work going on right now to see which of the countries--and I understand 160 countries out of the 188 countries in the world--are trying to figure out what to do as either suppliers or receivers of IEPs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Great.

Mr. Cardozo, if you could give that to the clerk at some point, that'd be great. We'll make sure it gets distributed to all the members on the committee.

Yes, Mr. Hébert.

[Paul Hébert]

I'd also point to Australia. I know that for the mining industry, Australia is a major player. They've been quite aggressive with their immigration policy, and FCR factors into that. It's not only foreign credentials, but also foreign competency. We, as well, are taking a very close look at what's going on there and what's working and what's not. We have some information we could get to you through Andrew, and we will have more to come.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to the next round, then, which will be five minutes. We have Mr. Valley up for that.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the presentation.

I was encouraged to hear from Mr. Cardozo that for more than two decades the federal government, regardless of the stripe of the political party, has been working on this issue. I guess we're all here to figure out how we make it work better.

My questions will be about mining, or will be in that vein. We identified future trends and what happens with tremendous demands or rapid demands on our short-term cycle. I'll use my own riding as an example.

In northwestern Ontario we have huge potential, thanks to some of the activity in mining right now through flow-through shares. Everyone's working. It's a good program in an area of huge unemployment. My riding is the eighth largest in Canada. There are about 250,000 square kilometres. They have no roads. They have more remote sites than any other place in Canada. I'm talking about remote first nations communities.

There are going to be job opportunities there. We can look at the Victor Lake site right now and at how we get those populations ready to participate. They're 85% to 90% unemployed at this point. We have a different culture. We have areas of Canada that most people don't realize have just started to see vehicles in the last couple of decades, just got TV 25 years ago, just got airports so they can land planes year-round not very long ago. This is a huge culture shock.

Mr. Swinwood mentioned grade 11 and grade 12, but there are no high schools in these areas. They have elementary schools. Some now--the large communities--are getting the ability to have high schools. In most places they use remote high schools.

So how do we look to the future to realize there are going to be a lot of jobs? They may be short-term, 5-, 10-, or 15-year jobs, but how do we involve the people who live there?

[Paul Hébert]

There's no question that the industry is cyclical and we are in the midst of the boom portion of the cycle. The consensus seems to be that this boom will be prolonged, but it will inevitably come to an end.

There is a huge opportunity right now given the success that the mining sector is experiencing and given its close proximity to aboriginal communities in northern Ontario and, in fact, across Canada's north, where you have some 1,200 aboriginal communities within 200 kilometres of a mine site.

There are some specific initiatives being undertaken. De Beers, for example, at its Victor project, with JBET, the James Bay employment and training partnership, is delivering training directly to the community. Despite the cyclical nature of the industry, with the development of occupational standards, what workers get are transferrable skills that can be recognized by employers in other sectors when the downturn does come. Again, those occupational standards give that mobility and the opportunity for continued meaningful employment.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

One of the things someone mentioned was the mobility of the workforce. I can think of nothing better than a mobile workforce trained that will be prepared to move across the country when the downturn comes. But I'm particularly concerned.

I think you used De Beers as an example, as they're involved in that. They have the site, they're actually participating in education, but what they've done to fit in more employees--and I want your thoughts on this--is that they've downgraded many of the positions. I'm not sure if I'm using the right term, but what they've said is, say there are 600 people who are going to be working at this site--I'm just using a number; I don't know what it is--and 50 of those people do not have to have a high school education. What they've said now is, considering the workforce there, with the amount of work they can do now, 125 don't need a high school education.

What can we do in that field? How can we provide the high school education in those areas for the people above the 125, the 475 people who are going to be involved? We know we're not going to get all the engineers and highly skilled trades out of there, but how do we start that process now?

De Beers started early. They had a few setbacks, mainly because of red tape. But how do we start that now, considering that there could be thousands of jobs in northern Ontario that no one is educated for at this point? So how do we get going now?

[Paul Hébert]

Again, I would point to occupational standards and partnerships with post-secondary education. I think it's a good thing that the requirements were changed to allow more people to gain access to that labour market. However, it shouldn't be capped there.

With the standards and an understanding of the progression through various careers within an industry, it gives the employer and the education system the information they need to provide incremental training--that is, on-the-job training, or even return to school en alternance with work terms--so that people, specifically aboriginal people, can access those higher levels of employment.

It's definitely a challenge where the aboriginal community is concerned. There are, in some cases, very high levels of aboriginal employment, but they're mostly spread across one stratum of employment.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

When De Beers takes in 125 people--and again, it's just a number--who are prepared to work but they don't have a high school education, are there any government programs or is there any thought to the future, where we support them, like apprenticeships, to get the education while they're on-site? Is there anything like that we can do?

[Paul Hébert]

I'm not aware of a specific program, but I think it's a real opportunity, whereby the workers could access a GED, for example, and complete that while they're on the job.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

With government support, working with a company?

[Paul Hébert]

Exactly, where an infusion of federal and or provincial dollars could leverage employer investment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Swinwood, for 10 seconds.

[Paul Swinwood]

Industry Canada has a program called First Nations SchoolNet, to connect through broadband all the aboriginal communities. That is one way we can get the education, curriculum, and everything to these remote communities. It's an excellent program and it should be continued.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Swinwood.

We're going to move to Mr. Lessard for five minutes.

It's all yours.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I also want to thank our witnesses for joining us this morning. Their testimony has been highly informative and will help us a great deal to prepare our report.

I'd like to focus first on the mining sector. I grew up in Abitibi, a mining region, in a family of mine workers. There's one aspect of this job that you haven't touched on and I have to wonder why that is so. Mining is physically demanding work.

We hear a lot of talk about qualifications. People must be trained in order to work in the mines. A rather startling fact is that half of mine workers are between the ages of 40 and 54. Therefore, we're dealing with an older workforce that may not be so easy to replace.

Mining presents some physical demands. Furthermore, many mines use archaic equipment. For instance, some mining operations still use jack hammers, which can be very hard on a person's back. It's quite an achievement if a miner working underground manages to reach the age of fifty. Moreover, the accident and mortality rate is among the highest for mine workers. This reality needs to be acknowledged.

In your opinion, are the physical demands of mining a contributing factor to the shortage of workers of this sector? If so, what steps are being considered to mitigate these demands in order to attract young people to the mining profession? A mine can only operate if the ore can be extracted. Extracting ore is the most important job in the mining sector, in my estimation.

[Paul Hébert]

Indeed, the problem is the perception that mining is physically very demanding and low tech work. That may have been true in the past. There will always be very demanding professions. I for one would have been hard pressed to operate a jack hammer and drill support weighing 100 or 125 lbs.

However, major technological advances have been made over the last 20 to 30 years and these have radically changed the nature of the work and the physical effort demanded of mine workers.

You also mentioned the mortality rate. It has declined substantially. The mining sector no longer boasts one of the highest mortality rates among workers. However, you have raised an important point. This perception is an impediment to recruiting workers. Young people see the profession in a certain way, but this is truer still in the case of their parents, the ones who influence to a greater extent the choices young people make.

Our challenge is to provide educators, parents and young people with the real facts so that they can make enlightened choices.

I'm not saying that any one particular sector should be touted. I'm simply saying that we should tell it like it is so that young people know exactly what to expect. We're not denying that the job is physically demanding, but we're also saying that it is high tech work and mining operations once done underground are now being conducted above ground.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Still on the subject of mining in the Abitibi, it's a fact that jack drills are still used to this day to extract the ore.

Mr. Swinwood, it seems to me that some kind of alliance can be formed to develop mining technology. What's being done in this area? You've stated that this situation has greatly evolved--I do respect your opinion--but if we compare the mining sector with other economic sectors, it's clear that it is by no means in the forefront of technology.

Are certain initiatives under way or are sector officials simply content to say that this situation has improved?

[Paul Hébert]

Many R & D activities are under way. The mining sector has one of the highest R & D budgets. I'm quite certain officials never feel that they have reached their goal. Research efforts are ongoing. The latest technology must always be used. Deposits are located ever further underground and new technologies are needed to extract the ore. Laurentian University in the Sudbury region has established a partnership with the industry. Corporations such as MIRARCO and CAMIRO spend substantial amounts of money to ensure that the best technologies are available to mining companies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move on to the next question from Madam Savoie.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Employee recruitment and retention are a function of job security and job quality. I'd like to know what Sector Councils are doing to create good jobs.

[Andrew Cardozo]

Certainly, retention, with the view to life-long learning, is one of the main issues we've been addressing. One of the things we want to enhance in the country is a culture of learning. As technology speeds ahead, it's important to make sure that your employees also move ahead. This way they feel part of the workforce and have full access to advancement within an office or factory. So retention and life-long learning are issues that are addressed quite widely, as is the issue of essential skills.

There was a question earlier about literacy. The whole package of essential skills is important: literacy, numeracy, computer use, and soft skills like the ability to analyze documents and work with others. All of these things work towards people doing better in the workplace, staying there and making their maximum contribution.