Human Resources Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. LeBlanc.

[Phil LeBlanc]

Within the seafood sectors we're going to have to do more with fewer people, and that involves training. This sector is so important to provide training and allow us to improve our knowledge so we can do more with fewer people. The use of technology is the way we have to go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Oehling.

[Johanna Oehling]

Of course we have an issue of an aging workforce, but we also have to deal with competition from other sectors, both from urban areas where our seafood processing sector exists, such as in Vancouver, for example, and also from more prosperous economies. If we don't address this issue adequately, the potential exists for the diminishing of our sector. That is very important.

Typically the seafood processing industry, as a place of employment, also hasn't had the highest reputation. Yet there are some wonderful jobs within seafood processing establishments. I'm not sure how well that is known. We are working to address all of that. At the end of the day, we have all the competitive issues that other groups have, plus we have a few others, as I just mentioned.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That reminds me of when I visited IMO Foods. When I was the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and went to the Boston seafood show, I saw some of the most modern equipment. It takes highly trained people to maintain and operate that equipment these days, which changes things.

This brings me to the question of what emphasis should the Government of Canada be putting on the issue of providing training for higher skills and what emphasis should it be putting on basic education? In other words, we have a lot of people on the margins. Among certain groups in our country, we have large numbers of people who have difficulty with basic education, literacy, numeracy, and so forth. What emphasis should the Government of Canada be putting on that group of people, versus those who are ready for higher skills training? It seems to me that we have fewer and fewer of those. If they are ready, they are doing it and they're probably employed, especially in Alberta.

Speaking of the Yarmouth area, my colleague Robert Thibault spoke to me recently about how AF Theriault & Son, which is a major shipbuilder in that area, lost twenty welders to Alberta and now has to train carpenters to be welders.

[Phil LeBlanc]

That's right.

I'll talk about the marginal people you speak about. In our industry, there are a lot of entry-level people coming in who need some essential skills development. We need to focus on lifelong learning in our industry, as in other industries, and build on essential skills while they're in the workplace.

At some times of the year, because of the seasonal nature of our business, there are opportunities for people to take training and build their central skills, and maybe even develop some post-secondary types of training. We have to work that way and make this a very important part of the development of our workforce.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

That's all the time we have for that round.

We're going to move to the next questioner, Madame Bonsant.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I would like to thank you for coming today. You have all raised the issue of skills development, and I have a number of questions to ask in this regard. I don't know where to start.

In my riding, there are a number of residents who were formally physicians in other countries, but who now scrub floors. Is your company willing to take on well-trained immigrants, and invite them to sit for tests so that they are able to practice in the province and in the country? Is your company prepare to help them throughout this process?

Many people who come here from abroad have to start their studies from scratch. This is a very expensive process. And given that they have already completed a program of study, they don't feel like starting from square one.

Ms. Rivet, you work in the biotechnology field. Would you be willing to take on people with some skills and back them financially as a measure of your support throughout the whole process?

[Colette Rivet]

Thank you for asking me this question. I am very anxious to answer it. We are indeed looking for ways to assist such people and assess their skills. I did not have the opportunity to talk to you about this, but it is an issue which was referred to in our written brief.

Over the next three weeks, I will be travelling throughout the country speaking to skilled immigrants who have doctorates and other such qualifications, in order to determine what obstacles prevent them from being part of the biotechnology labour market.

I am also going to speak to employers and ask them the same questions. Often times, employers are afraid immigrants do not have the right skills for their company. These are very small-scale companies which do not even have enough money in the bank to pay out a year's wages. These companies do not usually want to risk employing people who do not match the right skill set.

I am not talking about large pharmaceutical companies, I am talking about small companies which make up 75% of our sector. When looking for solutions such as one-year internships, which will give these immigrants experience and reassure employers that there is no risk involved at all. This would also give immigrants an opportunity to determine whether they like that particular industry.

So we are indeed looking for ways to go about this. We will try meeting with as many people as possible.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Ms. Oehling, you said something I found somewhat scandalous. You said that seasonal workers should retrain and even, from what I understood, relocate. I don't know if you saw the special television program on China on one of the French-speaking television station this week. I find it difficult to reconcile a situation whereby both a father and a mother—or indeed either of the two—has to work away from home. Children are left up to their own devices. This is what happens. We can't just look at things through an urban lens. There is an entire rural world out there too. And what of the family unit. Not everybody is going to drop everything and go elsewhere for a year or two. You must not forget that some seasonal workers work in the cultural and tourism industries. Their seasonal work is tourism. In my riding, there is the Festival of Colours which ends in October.

Why should these specialists who have studied, and who are experts in their field, be forced to go back to school and relocate? Because they are seasonal workers, or to make EI program administrators happy? So I was a bit shocked by that. There is a municipality in my riding which has 112 residents and is located two and a quarter hours from my home. They are entitled to live there. We cannot strip the rural area bare just to suit the urban regions.

How can you develop skills when you uproot them?

[Johanna Oehling]

Thank you very much.

I think your question is well founded, but what we're talking about is having to address the issues of skill shortages and families actually having to make a living, even if it's not in optimum conditions. Perhaps what we're talking about when we talk about worker mobility is not on a grand scale but in particular regions for particular periods of time. Workers have to live just like anyone else, and need employment opportunities with mechanisms in place that would provide a measure of support to make that transition easier. People do it now. It's happening across the country, not in grand numbers, but it is happening.

A new board member of ours is from Winnipeg. There is the Freshwater Fish Marketing Corporation there, quite a large operation, right in downtown Winnipeg almost, and they have a tremendous shortage of workers. They have a sign outside advertising--that's how critical it is. I know in P.E.I. Russian seasonal workers are brought in to assist companies there. There used to be a lot of migration from Newfoundland to P.E.I. for three, four, or five months to cover off the seasons.

I agree with you that perhaps this is not an ideal solution, but there have to be some mechanisms in place to assist these people who are going to have to make that move for economic reasons.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Also I have a fish farm from among other types of farms, in my riding.

There are a lot of high school dropouts. Have you thought about visiting schools and inviting young dropouts to get involved in coop programs? These young people could work for you for 15 hours, and see if they enjoy the field, while they complete their secondary studies. This idea has been developed with the various chambers of commerce in the Sherbrooke region and it seems to be working well. Industry seeks out the young people, and has them work for 15 hours a week, with the proviso that they complete their high school studies. This makes them aware of the labour shortage.

Would you be willing to visit high schools and talk with career advisors and young dropouts and offer them a 15-hour work—25-hour school mix?

[Johanna Oehling]

I'm very happy that you raised that issue. In our sector we have been trying for a number of years to gather some support to provide career information to the high schools and colleges about occupations within our sector. It has been a tough sell in the seafood processing industry, as you can understand. Nevertheless, there is a need to be there, especially in the coastal communities, where there will continue to always be a fishing presence. Yes, if we could get the support to do that it would be one avenue by which we could address the notion of skill shortages.

You cited the example of aquaculture. That's not a seasonal industry in the way that the wild harvest is, and there are opportunities for full-time employment there. Yes, I would support what you say very much, and I'm sure my industry would as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have for that round. Thank you very much.

We'll move along to Mr. Martin, for seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to shift for a moment. There's lots of talk out there today about using foreign-trained everything. We have people in the country who are doing things that don't match their expertise or their experience. But in my experience, we also have people in the country who actually want to work, and they are, if not skilled and trained, certainly motivated. The problem, though, is putting it together.

I know lots of young people in my own community who hear about something down the road. You talk about Jennifer needing 39,800 workers and the supply is only 24,000. In my experience, there are lots of people out there who want to work, but we don't seem to be able to put it together. I know there are sector councils and I know there have been reports made and recommendations made, but we're still not able to make that connection, to put the plug in the wall, so to speak.

I was out in B.C. a couple of weeks ago looking at the issue of poverty and recognizing a growing number of people who really do want to work, but for some reason or another, it just hasn't happened for them. They told me that at one point, at one shelter, companies used to come and give them a list of people they needed to do certain things. The shelter would provide them with the boots, the hard hat, and everything, and would ship them out. They'd be gone for a day, or two, or three, and work and come back. But it doesn't happen anymore. What's happening there actually is that they're bringing in offshore workers to work for $3 and $4 an hour, so the local folks aren't getting the jobs.

There may be jobs in other places, perhaps in the fishing industry in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia, but how do you get them from B.C. to New Brunswick to do that? That's my first question.

I know there are people out there. I run into them. I talk to them. I see them. They hear about these jobs that are supposedly available. One young fellow from my own community went and took a tool and die course, thinking and hearing that there was all kinds of need for that. He can't find a job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Steeves.

[Jennifer Steeves]

Our industry does need those people who are motivated and want to work, no question. For us, as far as looking at the foreign worker is concerned, only about 400 people a year are coming in and saying they're automotive service technicians. It's a very small pool. So we do need to access those people who want to get into the industry.

The key there, I think, from our experience, is essential skills levels. People may have the desire to work in the industry, and for key occupations for our industry, they do need to go through the apprenticeship system, but having foundational skills in reading, numeracy, and document use, and thinking skills are key for people to get into our industry and succeed. They need those foundational skills just to get in, but once they're there, the rate of technological change is just absolutely astounding.

I know for the professional development training that we do, advanced electronics is a huge part of that and there is a huge demand by the employers. A lot of their employees who have been working in the industry five, ten, or fifteen years are having a hard time learning and understanding these advanced concepts, because they can't read a wiring diagram. Somehow they've gotten through, they're into the workplace, they've made it for so long, working in the capacity they're in, but with these advanced technologies that are coming in, they just can't keep up with it. So those foundational skills are so incredibly important for people to have, coming in.

Absolutely we want and need motivated workers, but as a way to provide these people, to set them up for success by giving them the level of skills that they need to have for specific industry occupations, we really need to partner with the education community and the apprenticeship community to ensure that we are setting up these young people or transitional workers for success.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Annis.

[Susan Annis]

Mr. Martin, to come at that from another angle, career awareness materials are incredibly important. You have your young group of graduating students, and they should be aware of what the great job potentials are all across the country. It's something that as sector councils we have all been doing in our own areas. We've had great support from HRSDC for these activities. We feel they're absolutely crucial to begin to address what you're talking about. HRSDC is pulling back on this now a bit, and we're hoping that will be re-thought, because we continue to believe it's a very important piece in this puzzle.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Cottingham, and then Ms. Oehling.

[Catherine Cottingham]

I'd like to echo the remarks of my esteemed colleagues, but also, like Susan, come at it in a bit of a different perspective.

I think one of the challenges that industry is facing is the change in our whole technology platform. The way we looked at work when the baby boomers came into the workforce is very different from the way it is now. The need for science- and technology-driven positions has been estimated by a study in the United States to have increased five times faster than the population change or the labour force change. We can't graduate enough people right now to meet the needs of the business.

If you're looking at an industry such as electricity—highly regulated, with important safety considerations—it's extremely important for us to deal with regulated professions and certifications. What it takes for a worker to achieve a position in our business quite often is a significant level of training. For a nuclear operator, from the point they start community college to the point they're actually considered able to sustain a shift solely on their own is ten years. We are very challenged in that context, because we are trying to protect public safety to maintain extremely technical complex equipment and we require very knowledgeable people.

Our industry, as it gets more computerized, is going to face this problem more and more. The time and support it takes to transition a worker who, as Jennifer says, is lacking essential skills is significant, and the dollar investment is significant. It would be very challenging for an individual employer to do but is certainly an important role for government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're almost out of time, but I'll give Ms. Oehling a quick comment on this.

[Johanna Oehling]

To speak to your point, Mr. Martin, in terms of what our work has been in British Columbia working with disadvantaged groups, we have a partnership with two organizations there. One is called ASPECT. You may have heard of it; it helps economically disadvantaged people in the province. Also, there is SUCCESS, which is a support group for Chinese immigrants. We have partnered with them and our seafood processing companies, whereby potential workers receive training on how to work in a fish plant. The companies will then engage their services for a period of time. It is for short-term employment, but it fills the need at the local level.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That's all the time we have.

I've just been informed by the clerk that it looks as though that group, ASPECT, is going to appear before our committee when we're out in Vancouver. It will be good to hear from them as well.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Storseth, we'll going to ask you for seven minutes of final questions for this round.