Human Resources Committee on Oct. 19th, 2006

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Chairman, it is relevant, and I think it's fair debate to ask the minister. He's part of the government and he should be able to comment on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Proceed, Ms. Davies.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Mr. Chairman... Did you want to say something?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, yes.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Mr. Chairman, may I remind the member, once again, that these questions should be addressed to the Honourable Diane Finley, who is the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada, which is responsible for this matter. I believe she will be appearing before the Committee very soon.

It seems to me there are many different topics that could be discussed here. How is it that no one has even mentioned pay equity, for example? That is a very interesting question. We replied to the Committee responsible for the Status of Women a month and a half ago, but not a single opposition member has asked even one question in the House on this important matter. I do hope one of you will raise it at some point.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

That's my next question, because I'm pretty angry, as a lot of women in Canada are, that your government rejected the pay equity task force report after so much investment by employers, employee groups, the organized labour movement. The response from your government was to say, well, we're going to have more education, we're going to look at people's roles and mandates. The task force report clearly showed that the complaint-driven process as it is now is not working. Women are spending decades to gain pay equity, and that's even when they have a union fighting for them.

So I would ask you about the pay equity task force report and why your government has rejected those recommendations and the idea that we don't need new legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Minister Blackburn, we only have about twenty seconds left.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

It's clear that I cannot answer that question in 20 seconds. I want to at least let you know that we have decided to be proactive—in other words, not to remain in a holding pattern. The previous government did in fact cut some of the measures that businesses were going to have to implement.

So, we have made a proactive proposal. If someone asks me a question about this, I can certainly provide additional details.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister.

We're now going to move over to our last individual this round. Mr. Fast, for five minutes, please.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to thank you and your staff for appearing before us. I commend you for the work you're doing in a difficult portfolio.

I'd like to move to the issue of pay equity, since it has been raised by Ms. Davies. I'm a bit puzzled, and I'll tell you why.

In Canada we already have the Canadian Human Rights Act, which in fact prohibits discrimination in the area of wages where men and women perform work of the same value or similar value. Subsequent to that legislation being passed, there were also some guidelines issued that set out the criteria that would be applied in trying to ensure that we have pay equity in Canada. Yet we hear from the opposition parties that they want more legislation, they want more regulation, they want more action.

As you know, for the last 13 years we had a Liberal government that had the current legislation in place, but it appears that no action has been taken in moving forward the issue of pay equity. In fact, there are a number of areas in which there could have been some action, but the government didn't move forward. As examples, there's the area of educating employers in the area of wage equity; ensuring that we had a more robust dispute resolution process; and ensuring that we have a vigorous compliance program, coupled with enforcement.

I would really appreciate hearing from you some comments as to what you're moving forward with to ensure that we move toward true wage parity and wage equity in Canada.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

First of all, our government recognizes the principles of pay equity, as laid out in the Canadian Human Rights Act. Furthermore, I was a government member of Parliament at the time, back in 1986, when our government enacted certain regulations. Following that, in 1995, the Liberal government decided to cut off funding, in order to promote pay equity in the workplace. I should also point out that the Canadian Human Rights Act sets out the principle of equal wages for work of equal value.

When we met with the various unions, women's groups and employer representatives, we realized that there was no consensus among them—not even among the unions. No two groups were in favour of the same approach in terms of the means of achieving pay equity. Some wanted us to adopt the Quebec model; others, the Ontario model; and still others, the model proposed in the Bilson Report, the 113 recommendations of which were recently tabled.

Also, because we are a minority government—we are aware of that reality, seeing as how the Opposition reminds us of that fact every day in the House of Commons—we wondered about the best course of action: even if we were to pass new legislation, it wouldn't take us very far, because we would always have to ensure that the legislation was enforced. So, we opted for enforcement of section 8 of the Canadian Human Rights Act. But how would we actually accomplish that?

The Department of Labour has 90 inspectors that regularly visit corporate workplaces to ensure that contractors and others are complying with the Canada Labour Code legislation. Having said that, those 90 inspectors receive special training with respect to pay equity. As a result, when they visit corporate workplaces, they ask employers whether they are applying the principle of pay equity and whether they are moving forward in that regard. They attempt to educate and inform employers, so that they can actually make progress in applying principles of pay equity to their own employees.

The Department of Labour also has 15 mediators, and there will soon be a sixteenth. One of these mediators has special skills in the area of mediation counseling as it relates to negotiations on pay equity. The others will also be receiving additional training on this. After a few meetings, if we realize that the employer is not willing to take action and is not acting in good faith, these mediators are authorized to file a complaint with the Canadian Human Rights Commission, so that it can investigate the situation and act accordingly.

This is our vision: by proceeding in this manner, in a way we are forcing employers to move forward, but not in a negative way. In fact, we are taking a proactive stance, explaining that the legislation exists and that employers have to apply the principle of pay equity. In my opinion, this will allow the two parties to move forward together.

So, that is what we have decided to do, because even if we had passed more legislation, we would still have had to ensure that it is enforced.

Let's take Quebec, for example—it is another good example. Indeed, in 1995 or 1997—I don't remember exactly—Quebec passed pay equity legislation. All business corporations had until 2001 to be compliant. And yet we are now in 2006, and some 60% of business corporations have not yet achieved pay equity.

In my opinion, we are still moving in the right direction, because what we are doing is both proactive and positive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Minister. We're all out of time.

We're going to move back to the Liberals. Mr. Coderre, you have five minutes, sir.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, I was a Minister. I was the Minister responsible for Sport, I was the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, where I managed more than 75,000 employees and a budget of $1.3 billion, and with great pride, I worked closely with people. I was also President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, so I am well aware of what a minister's job entails.

The role of a minister is not to be a member of Parliament with convictions or a minister responsible only for his own turf; the role of a minister is not to be constantly tagging along behind someone else. The role of a minister is also to be a source of inspiration. When you are aiming to work towards equity and for the environment, when social peace is challenged, when you are seeking a balance between the rights of workers and the rights of employers, the role of a minister—in other words, your role, Minister—is to bridge the gap between the two.

So, you can forget about coming here this morning and telling us all kinds of stories about not wanting to force the hand of the provinces. You have legislation called the Canada Labour Code. In Quebec, the strikes that lasted the longest occurred in companies that are subject to the Canada Labour Code, as opposed to the Quebec Labour Code. That creates problems in families, it creates significant social problems, and you know as well as I do that I could cite the Vidéotron example. So don't bother coming to tell us this kind of thing, because we're not suitcases; we don't have a handle on our back.

Minister, I'm going to give you one last chance before moving on to another matter. At the time, you quite rightly demonstrated a certain amount of conviction as a member of Parliament. I don't even want to give the impression of having doubts about that; I believe you. You are a kind hearted man and you are capable of making decisions. So, please tell me why you were in favour of anti-scab legislation back then, but now you are against it.

Was it the Department that told you—just as they told the former Minister of Labour—not to get involved in this and not to support it? Is it the Prime Minister's Office, which seems to control every member of Parliament and Minister, telling you that? What is your answer?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

At least it brings a smile to my face, Mr. Coderre.

First of all, I would remind you that it was your government, back in 1999, that passed the legislation that in fact allows a business to use replacement workers, provided that it does not undermine union representation. If they actually had a leader, Liberal Party members might cooperate a little more. Right now, however, everybody seems to be going off in different directions, because your party doesn't have a leader.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We will see the results subsequently, Mr. Blackburn.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

In 1999, the Liberal Party...

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We'll see the results of that subsequently. I would prefer that you talk about yourself.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

In 1999, it was your party that passed this legislation, and it is working. Once again, I can give you evidence of that. When an employer uses replacement workers, a union can file a complaint. Since the coming into force of the new provisions...

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We know all about that. Tell me about yourself, Minister.

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

But it's important that I tell you this.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We don't control our own time here. Just answer me.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

—I understand that Mr. Coderre likes to be very active when it comes to his questions, but perhaps he could wait until the minister is done so that the translation—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's not a point order. Thank you.

Mr. Coderre.