Human Resources Committee on Oct. 27th, 2006

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks very much.

We'll move on to Ms. Nash, for seven minutes, please.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to you this morning, presenters. If I have time, I'd like to ask each of you a question, and I'd like to begin with Ms. Go.

First of all, on the court challenges, I share your concern about the cancellation of the court challenges program. In my view, laws are only real if they are enforced. Without access to the court challenges program, perhaps most people who might be affected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms would be unable to get their rights enforced because they have no way of challenging. They don't have access to legal counsel. Do you agree that the cancellation of the court challenges program in fact undermines our ability to get our human rights enforced in Canada?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

I totally agree. Maybe the area of employment law can bring it home to this committee, which actually focuses on employment issues. The only way that we enforce and make sure that employers protect and respect the rights of the workers is by having a provincial body to do that. The government spent money to set up the Ministry of Labour's employment standards branch. People go there to file complaints, and the government provides lawyers to help these people enforce their rights.

In a way, the court challenges program is the lawyer in the area of charter rights. It's very important to understand that without that kind of support, these rights will become meaningless. The program is particularly important in constitutional areas, because they're unlike employment standards, where it's a $7.85 minimum wage and 40 hours before overtime. In a way, it's simple to understand what these rights are.

Employment standards are clear, but constitutional rights are very complex. An individual is not able to articulate why their rights are violated unless they can convince the court that somehow those rights fit into all the jurisprudence and complicated case law. There's no way that someone without some kind of support, whether it's from the court challenges program or just a pro bono lawyer or whatever, would be able to do that. Without that, even if we have rights on paper, we are effectively not able to exercise them.

This government, just like any previous government, has said it is committed to human rights. We say that domestically and we say that internationally. When we go to the United Nations Human Rights Committee to make our presentations, the court challenges program is always touted as the program that exemplifies Canada's commitment to human rights. Because of that, Canada is acknowledged as a country that respects and enforces human rights, yet we now turn around and eliminate one of the most distinctive programs in Canada.

This program is unique. You cannot find a similar program anywhere in the world. It's part of the reason why we have such a great reputation overseas: because of the program and because of our commitment to human rights.

It does not make sense at all to eliminate a program that really spends very little money in the overall scheme of things. I would say that $2.5 million out of the $13-billion budget is less than a drop in the bucket.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you. Your passion comes through very clearly.

Yes, our reputation internationally on human rights is something Canada has been very proud of. Certainly the amount of money for the court challenges program is a very small amount of money, then, given the much larger budget that we're operating with federally.

I have a very short time to ask questions, Ms. Spindel, so let me just ask you one.

Continuing on with the idea of the train of human rights, in my riding here in Toronto, some of the people who are most desperate are people with disabilities, people who perhaps could do some work, but they do have limitations. They need accommodation, and as you indicated, they don't necessarily know how to navigate the system or get access to programs that already exist.

It seems to me that what Canada is lacking is a really clear national strategy for people with disabilities, so that we can ensure that they get access to their full rights. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. How does Canada stack up compared to other developed countries in terms of our approach to people with disabilities? It's a big question and we have a short timeframe, but perhaps you could give me your thoughts.

[Andrea Spindel]

First of all, I'll just say I agree with you that it is true that people with disabilities lack the structures, a comprehensive national system, a national strategy. We recommend that the provinces, territories, and the federal government work together to come up with one.

Having been in the business of serving people with disabilities for 35 years now, I have read umpteen reports. I would take you back to a report that Joan Brown wrote in 1981. It talks about disparity in all the systems and all the silos, and she recommended that we create one integrated employment system. I can say that with great pride because Joan Brown and I have stayed in touch all these years. She has been an adviser to the European Economic Community for many years, and she may even be past retirement now. I heard from her this week, and it remains a real interest of hers that Canada had the opportunity to do it but didn't.

The second thing we would support is a Canadians with disabilities act. You ask how do we stack up against others. In Ontario, we hold out with great pride the fact that we now have legislation in the form of the AODA, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. The March of Dimes is carrying out a national campaign to encourage the federal government to work together with the provinces to adopt such legislation nationally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Nash, that's all the time we have for this round. You'll have to get those in the next round.

The last questioner on this round is Mr. Brown, for seven minutes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Mr. Ramsaroop. The question I had is in terms of new Canadians who require additional Canadian education. What advice would you have for the government in terms of training? Is training something you see as important? There are not enough services offered, and if finances are a barrier to that education, what types of programs do you see that the Government of Canada could have to better train new Canadians?

[Chris Ramsaroop]

In my capacity as speaking and advocating for migrant agricultural workers, the first thing to let you know is that they are denied access to training programs. They cannot come here to get any type of education. On their work permit it says that if you come as a guest worker, you cannot attend any educational institution, you cannot have any training. You are basically stuck in that one position as an agricultural worker.

So there is no social or economic mobility whatsoever for these workers. That's tied to the immigration laws and it's tied to the way HRDC runs its program.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

So how would you advise us if they could be changed?

[Chris Ramsaroop]

I'd advise, one, making sure that there's a process of regularization; two, eliminating barriers that deny these workers access to any form of education and training; and three, removing this committee's past policy recommendations of excluding migrant agricultural workers from accessing EI in their home countries.

Part of the training and education is not only going to happen here in Canada, but also in Trinidad, in Jamaica, in Barbados, and in Mexico. As such, we have to look at a progressive framework to ensure that employment insurance is extended to their home countries as well.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Have you ever done any research on whether there are other professional skills within the migrant workers you represent? Are there engineers or doctors or other trades that would have a natural liaison within Canada?

[Chris Ramsaroop]

Part of the agricultural framework is defined as non-skills , and I think that's another thing we have to look at: who is defined as non-skilled and who is defined as skilled.

You have a group of racialized workers who work 18, 19 hours a day and who have become very good at what they do, but it's still considered non-skilled. The fact that they can't do any other type of work, the fact that many of them want to be construction workers or get some education to try to improve their situation, but they can't.... Even if you said that you want them to try to be an engineer or a doctor, the immigration restriction that currently exists denies them any opportunity to do so, and this is happening for every time any guest worker program is introduced in Canada. They are basically limited to their place of employment.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

May I answer that? The other type of migrant worker would be, for instance, the live-in caregivers. Of the people who are coming here and working as domestics, 99% of them are from the Philippines, and many of them are actually nurses in their home country. Their skills are not recognized and they cannot come in as independent immigrants because they don't have enough points to come in as independent immigrants, so they come in as domestic workers. They are working at cleaning homes. Then they try to get their accreditation in Canada to go back to their nursing profession. So it's a roundabout way. It takes more time...and there is a serious nursing shortage in Canada.

The issue goes beyond just how agricultural workers are treated, but how the point system is set up, how we define who is an eligible immigrant and who is not, how we decide who gets in. It all impacts on why so many people are coming here with their high skills and working in very low-end jobs. The people actually have the skills to fill the jobs, to fill the positions that we need.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

I have a question for Ms. Spindel.

I was interested in one of the comments you made. You said one of the problems is there's a lack of awareness of the services that are currently available for those persons with disabilities. You made me think of a good example. This committee gave out the Centennial Flame Award. I thought there was an example of where it probably wasn't publicized as it could have been.

What advice do you have for us? What could the Government of Canada do to better promote the services we currently provide?

[Andrea Spindel]

I'm going to actually ask my colleague who is the director of employment services to speak to that, because she's close to all the organizations and agencies that fund this.

[Judy Quillin, Director, Ontario March of Dimes]

As we mentioned in the brief, we provide services through a variety of funders, that is, many with the Ontario government, some with the municipalities through the Ontario Works program, and certainly some through Service Canada. So really all levels of government are involved in the promotion of service delivery to individuals with a disability.

I think what we are really encouraging is a unified approach, through the Government of Canada, the province, and the territories, and even through the municipalities, in the promotion of programs. There is different eligibility to get into each program, different criteria, and somehow there has to be a unified approach so that individuals with a disability can go into one portal, if you will, to understand the system and which program is appropriate for them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Brown.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First of all, I want to thank you for the work you do every day in assisting people who are at the bottom end of the income scale. You probably have to keep them from getting and staying depressed with the futility of their situation. We don't work with those people every day, and I want you to know that we appreciate your work and laud you for it.

Ms. Go, you're probably aware of the last report of the National Council of Welfare, which just came out about a week ago. It says that the top 20% of earning families are now taking home 43% of the income in the country. The bottom 20% are only taking home 5% of the national income. Does this not suggest to you that we need to raise the minimum wage?

[Avvy Yao-Yao Go]

Absolutely. Many groups have been suggesting that it be raised to at least $10. I'm not an expert in this area, and I don't know how high it has to go, but $10 sounds good to me. My clients who come in every day work just as many hours as I do, but they're making less than one-third of what I'm making. The group we work with, immigrant workers, tends to be in jobs that pay only minimum wage, as opposed to the more unionized workers, who are paid more than minimum wage. So the minimum wage must be increased in order to ensure that people at the bottom are protected.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

If a person worked 50 weeks of the year, 40 hours a week, a minimum wage of $11.40 would only give that person the equivalent of what we send out to our seniors in combined old age security and GIS. Seniors who have retired deserve every cent they get—I don't want to lower it; but we have people working in full-time jobs who do not earn as much as the government sends out for free to seniors.

Ms. Spindel, I want to thank you for pointing out that volunteer work is work too. It adds to our quality of life and sense of community. You said you don't have enough resources to assist clients in navigating the system. I assume you're talking about the need for caseworkers to help people move through the system. How many caseworkers would you need to hire to have enough to do this work?

[Andrea Spindel]

We are talking about caseworkers, case managers?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes. How many would you need to hire—in an ideal world—to cope with your clientele? Do you have a number you could give us?

[Judy Quillin]

That's a difficult question to answer.