Human Resources Committee on Oct. 31st, 2006

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Madam Minister, I'm sorry. You said earlier that we were doing good work here. If we are doing good work, it is because we make an effort to be efficient and we don't work in a vacuum.

We want to know this morning whether you are aware of the cuts that you have made. You are the minister and you are the person who took this political decision. What have you cut in literacy? That is what the organizations want to know, because they are the ones who deliver the goods in the field.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

This is exactly what I'm trying to explain. We have not cut existing programs. All existing commitments will be honoured. It's going forward, as applications for new programs and new projects are made, that we will be applying stricter criteria, to make sure we don't get the kind of waste we've seen in previous programs. That's what we're going to be doing.

We're going to be focusing the money on where it gets done, but existing programs have not been cut. We will be honouring all existing commitments. Going forward, we're just going to be a little more rigorous about making sure that people who apply for programs, who get money for programs, are delivering programs that help to increase literacy levels for Canadians.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Okay. You are saying that you are not cutting the programs. But as you know it is organizations that implement and deliver the programs. You say that you are targeting organizations. How will the organizations be affected by your cuts? Only a portion of the $80 million is allocated to organizations. You must be in a position to be able to tell us which part that is. What are you cutting? That is what I want to know.

[Janice Charette, Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

I could add something to the question about the cuts to the literacy programs.

The adult learning literacy and essential skills program has two components to it. There's a component of the program that deals with national projects, and there's an element of the program that deals with local and regional programming.

As the minister said, we've just recently completed a series of calls for proposals. All of the calls for proposals were completed on or before September 15.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, but it is the minister who made the cuts and who took the political decision. I am dumbfounded this morning to see that she can't answer my question. It seems to me that this should be easy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have. We're going to have to catch you in the next round, Mr. Lessard.

We're going to move to Mr. Martin, for seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you for coming today, Minister.

I've been around government for about sixteen years now. It has always been my understanding and my experience that the minister in a particular portfolio becomes champion for that portfolio. The minister goes out and consults and pushes forward, trying to get new resources to develop new initiatives and to make sure that ministry is having a positive result in the jurisdiction in which they serve.

I can't for the life of me find anybody who has said that you consulted with them about these cuts, including the provincial ministers, who said they had no consultations with you about the cuts. I would think a minister would want to consider all the good information that's available out there. It just blows me away that, for example, you've cut $3 million out of the budget of the Canadian Policy Research Networks, one of the most respected and well thought of research agencies in the country.

Given that you are to be the champion of social programs and programs under human resources, why is it that your ministry took the biggest cut of all? I believe it was $152.8 million. Why would this be the case if you're the champion of social development and human resources in the country?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'd like to refute just a couple of those issues.

Number one is that the single biggest cut came from Canada Revenue Agency, the single biggest source of savings. Secondly, in a number of areas in which I have led this department, we have brought in new initiatives under social programs. For example, the targeted initiative for older workers was an issue raised by your party and by the Bloc in particular on several occasions. I listened to your concerns, and that's why we came forward with that initiative, as well as the five-week project. These are places where we have led, no question, and where we are delivering new programs to meet the needs of Canadians. I think we have to recognize that.

Secondly, I would argue again that no programs have been cut in terms of literacy. All existing commitments are going to be honoured. It's just that, going forward, we're going to be more rigorous about how we allocate the money. We've already identified—we have several lists—examples of where Canadian taxpayers' money has been spent neither well nor wisely nor effectively in terms of increasing literacy in this country.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

To listen to you, one would actually think you made no cuts, and that these cuts, however substantial.... For example, in literacy, you did cut $17.7 million. You cut $17.6 million out of the refocusing of the workplace skills strategy, all areas where you feel you're actually making new investments and new initiatives.

When you met with your colleagues at the OECD, were you aware that Canada ranks significantly below OECD countries in social spending? We spend 17%, compared to 27.2% in Belgium; 27.4% in Germany; 28.5% in France; 28.9% in Sweden; and 29.2% in Denmark. Are you aware that we are the lowest-spending jurisdiction among those countries that you sat down with and consulted with? Did you ask them any questions regarding where it is that we might bump up in terms of some of the cuts that you made?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Actually, we compared notes on a lot of subjects. One thing we discovered was that a lot of people were interested in how we deliver our high-quality programs so cost-effectively. A number of issues came up, particularly our pension programs, CPP, OAS, and the GIS. Other countries were very interested in those because they're facing those challenges now and are nowhere near as accomplished as Canada is. They're certainly not when it comes to value for the dollar and the percentage of our population that benefits from these programs.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

At a time when your government was very pleased about the fact that we had a $13-billion surplus—if you believe the newspapers, you were “awash in surplus cash in government”—and considering what perhaps you would do in your own personal life with your budget, you wouldn't take all of the money that you have and then put it down on your mortgage, for example. I'm sure you'd look around and see what it is that you need to spend on—if you had kids in university, if you wanted to upgrade the vehicle, or whatever. You wouldn't put the whole thing down on the deficit, on the debt, or on the mortgage.

Given the $13 billion that's out there, I want to know if you supported all the cuts, or did you fight for any of them to be reinstated or to stay in place?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There were a number of proposals made for savings, where we could realize savings. On some of them we said no, those are important and we need to protect them, and on others we realized that there was opportunity there because the money wasn't being wisely spent. We owe it to taxpayers to spend their dollars wisely. We have to do that; otherwise we're not being responsible.

Looking at the previous government's programs, we found that wasn't happening. So when we do things like paying down almost a record payment on the debt, that will free up $650 million each year for new programs in this country to help Canadians.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Can you give some examples of where you did in fact fight against some of these cuts?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I wouldn't be allowed to disclose those at the moment, because they didn't happen. Those were things that we decided we had to keep; they were important to us, because it's important to us to help take care of Canadians. We just want to make sure that the money we're spending on it is well spent.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

You will need, of course, to have ongoing independent advice to yourself and to your ministry. So the cut to CPRN just doesn't make any sense. In your own briefing paper, it says that CPRN's distinctive approach to policy research and its particular structure of networks further enhances its ability to access leading experts, research, and knowledge in a range of sectors. It plays a bridge between research policy stakeholders and the public, without playing an advocacy role, and it has developed the ability to move policy discussions into new spaces where constructive dialogue is possible.

Did you read this? Did you listen to any of that information as you made that significant and large cut to an agency that has served government so well for so long?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

We did, and what we concluded was that when we need their expertise, we'll be able to call on them as we call on any other range of experts.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

[Inaudible--Editor]...because of the cuts that you've made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time you have, Mr. Martin. Thank you very much.

We're going to move to the last individual in this round. Mr. Storseth, seven minutes, please.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'd like to thank you very much for coming forward today and appearing here. I'd also like to congratulate you on the excellent job you've been doing with this incredibly large and very diverse portfolio.

I'd also like to make sure the record shows, Minister, that this is the second time you've actually appeared before this committee in this still somewhat young Parliament.

I'd like to ask you today a little bit about what I, and I think all parties in this committee, especially in regard to the fact that we have agreed to take an extensive study and look at employability issues, consider to be the biggest challenge facing our country today, particularly in my riding of Westlock--St. Paul--that is, the labour shortages we are facing. It's affecting all parts of my riding. We have a booming economy in Alberta, and many people think of all the great things that are going on because of this booming economy, but the labour shortage issue really is threatening to bring that to a halt. Farmers can't find labourers for their jobs. We have restaurant owners who can no longer find red seal chefs and can't find waitresses. I think it's somewhat surprising to a lot of people that for some of the highest-paying jobs in my riding, the oil field sector can't even find people to fill those jobs.

This is very, very disturbing to the people of my riding. The shortage of skilled workers is a major concern, obviously, right across this country and could have serious ramifications on the Canadian economy.

I'd just like to read into the record some statistics that I found while researching.

According to the Conference Board of Canada, we are facing a shortage of more than a million skilled workers by 2020. That's amazing. What's more, they estimate that my home province of Alberta will face a shortage of over 300,000 workers by 2025. This is very serious.

In my own riding of Westlock--St. Paul, we are looking at 8,000 to 10,000 new jobs coming up in the next five years. I really believe the federal government has to take some leadership in this role. The last federal government overlooked this issue; they didn't see it coming and it absolutely broadsided them. I believe we need to take the time to develop Canada's next generation of skilled tradespeople, particularly in areas such as Westlock--St. Paul that are facing some of these huge shortages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Can you table the speech?

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I took the time to listen to Mr. Coderre's improvs about his own riding, and I think it's very important. I understand that they don't have any representation in Alberta, but we over here would like to stick up for Albertans.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

We spent all week there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead. Continue, Mr. Storseth.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Minister, could you please explain to me what Canada's new government is doing to further some of these objectives? And would you care to comment on what Canada's new government is doing to help address the current labour shortages?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I thank you for bringing up those—