Human Resources Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

You also said earlier that you heard through the grapevine that there would be administrative cuts. However, I can tell you that I am the person that manages the Summer Career Placement program with Service Canada. I have the last word. And I really don't see what the Minister can possibly cut. In my case, we're talking about $1,300,000. My budget is $235,000. I receive applications from about 600 people. Of that number, I only accept 75. If she wants to make administrative cuts, she certainly won't be doing that in Quebec. I have told MPs that they are going to have to look after their young people.

Ms. Douglas, how many of the young people you use will not have access to the program next year or in the coming years?

[Janis Douglas]

Should the potential cuts affect young people who are hired through our organization, as I said, based on just 60%, there would be about 600 or 700 young people. That would impact potentially around 70 to 100 spaces for children and families who often use the summer camps for child care, also for pre- and post. So the ripple effect is based on that.

That would be per year.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Yves, would you like to put a question to this gentleman?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Yes, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to close by putting a question to Mr. Williamson.

You represent the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. On September 25, you issued a press release stating that you were delighted to see the government making budget cuts of $1 billion. You also said earlier that you didn't know where those cuts had been made.

I just want to be sure I understand, because we will be held to account for the seriousness of the presentations made this morning.

I have received a great many letters from people in Quebec. The petition circulated by the Coalition québécoise contre les compressions fédérales en alphabétisation was signed by central union organizations and literacy and community groups; four million of the seven million people who live in Quebec are angry. They have written to the Prime Minister of Canada and have sent me a copy. I have also received letters from women's groups and community groups in Quebec.

When you say that you're delighted that these cuts are being made, on whose behalf are you making that statement? Who gave you that mandate? The people I referred to got together in the capital of Quebec to voice their opinion and examine the situation. And yet you are saying that even though you don't know what has been cut, you are very happy that these cuts have been made.

[John Williamson]

The Federation has 72,000 members.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean-Claude D'Amours]

Mr. Williamson, a quick answer please.

[John Williamson]

We have 72,000 supporters across the country who donate their after-tax dollars to support our watchdog and advocacy organizations, our work.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Who are the members of your Federation? Are they individuals or organizations?

[John Williamson]

Individuals.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Individuals. So, you represent 72,000 individuals in Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean-Claude D'Amours]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard. Your time is up.

Ms. Savoie, you have five minutes.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to come back to some of the points raised by Mr. Williamson with respect to literacy.

Do you believe the economy should serve Canadians by helping to build a stronger society, one that protects social and environmental interests, or do you instead believe that Canadians should be serving the economy?

[John Williamson]

Sorry, are you asking me who should...? You mentioned the economy, the environment, a few of these issues that--

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm saying, do you believe that a good economy should serve to protect Canadians' interests to build a strong civil society, to protect our environment, or should Canadians be serving the economy?

[John Williamson]

Well, I think it's both. I think, on one hand, we have a strong economy. It's not an accident that Canada is a strong--

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

What is the purpose of a good economy?

[John Williamson]

Well, it's to create jobs. Through a strong economy, we generate tax revenues to fund the programs that Canadians view as priorities--not everything on the wish list, though, but priorities, and that's what we're talking about here.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you. So it's to fund our Canadian priorities.

I want to come back to the issue of re-targeting or cuts. Re-targeting implies that either we have too much money for a particular program or that it's misdirected and should be redirected. In this case, we've heard this morning that there wasn't enough funding for literacy programs to begin with. I just want to hear a little bit more from around the table on the question of re-targeting or cuts in the case of literacy.

Are we just using lingo here to really talk about cuts? We're not really talking about re-targeting in the case of literacy or these summer programs. I wonder if you have any comments.

[Lesley Brown]

Thank you. I'd like to talk about retargeting, because we're getting lost in the rhetoric.

One of the issues is that the cuts have been made because programs are ineffective. Based on what? I didn't see any information about these programs that have determined they're ineffective. Everybody around this table believes we need to be accountable. We're very accountable in the literacy programs. Outside evaluators come in for everything we produce to make sure we're within budget and delivering what we have been paid to do. We can't just throw out things like “not a good, effective use of money” or “fat” or things like that, without saying what this is about. You can't just cut and say it's because it's ineffective. If something is ineffective, go after that specifically. Don't make a blanket cut.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

What would a pan-Canadian literacy program look like, if we were really determined as a society to meet the interests of Canadians?

[Askin Taner]

Perhaps I may answer your previous question with regard to retargeting. There are different funding streams in the National Literacy Secretariat, or whatever it's called these days. One of them is what we call FPT, federal-provincial-territorial. That has been eliminated, so what exists is funding for national projects. Some of the literacy organizations across Canada are so small and have such limited resources that it's absolutely impossible for them to carry out national projects. Therefore, they focus their efforts on local needs, and they are effective for that purpose. But if you take out that funding stream, only very large organizations that are able to go across the country and spend large sums of money with large human resources can realistically apply for that funding.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean-Claude D'Amours]

Ms. Savoie, if you don't mind, Mr. Laporte would also like to comment.

[Jean-Claude Laporte]

Earlier, we talked about spending that could be considered unnecessary or wasteful, such as developing a Web site for a literacy group.

But I'd like to give you a specific example. In a working class neighbourhood in Eastern Montreal, people who take literacy courses do not only learn by getting to know their multiplication tables and grammar rules; they can also gain practical experience, while at the same time learning to read and write.

A Web or Internet site can be used to develop a newsletter. The trainers are not the ones developing the newsletter. They are students receiving literacy training who develop it and distribute it to other organizations. They are proud to be able to do that. Knowledge acquisition and self-esteem are also important factors to consider. Without self-esteem, one cannot move forward.

So, cutting literacy programs means cutting people's self-esteem.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Jean-Claude D'Amours]

Thank you, Mr. Laporte and Ms. Savoie.

The last five minutes of this round will go to Mr. Brown.