Human Resources Committee on Nov. 8th, 2006

[Jane Worton]

Yes, that is something that would support lifelong learning. Yes, workplace literacy issues and funding for that are enormously important, but I think there's more in terms of having a community that supports lifelong learning, which Norma touched on.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Can you, in ten seconds, explain how you would say to the government how important that kind of lifelong learning, joining up groups in this community structure, would be?

[Norma Strachan]

When there was the Canadian labour force development.... There have been various committees started federally, and then they have had provincial spinoffs, partnerships, in which the sectors were able to get together and talk about the ways in which clients would come through programming.

Although community-based training is often considered to be the lower level of it, often what we have found is that people may.... Sometimes it is a lower level, but sometimes they may go to.... I've had people who have come out with master's degrees and then have had to come into a community-based training program to find out how to integrate, how to take their degree in anthropology and get a job in Victoria.

People often integrate and move in and out of the educational systems within Canada. With the educational systems working more collectively and cohesively and with the articulation agreements that were coming about from that, those are the kinds of things where we were able to recognize prior Learning assessment and recognition. All those initiatives have been cut at the federal level over the last 10 years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Savoie.

We're going to move to Ms. Yelich for five minutes, please.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you.

One of the questions I would like to ask each and every one of you is about the federal-provincial roles. I think I hear that you prefer to have the federal body, or the government, there, but that you would really prefer to see the provinces more engaged--but maybe I'm not hearing that right--because of the unique circumstances of each and every province and region.

I want to know if you feel that your province is unique at all in some of its needs compared to other parts of the country and if that is why we should have the province more engaged. I'm talking about the province of B.C. We're here to talk about employability and labour issues. I'd like to know if you think it's unique, if you think there's a unique solution, and what part B.C. should play.

Maybe we'll give Jane a chance to open.

[Jane Worton]

I think that B.C. is a unique province, but I don't think that issue is unique to B.C.

From my perspective and from my organization's perspective, I would say that the federal government delivers dollars to the provinces and then leaves the provinces the choice of how to spend those dollars. My argument would be that the federal government has a responsibility to ensure that those dollars are spent in a way that the federal government designated and desired them to be spent. So from my perspective individually, as a taxpayer, I want to make sure my federal dollars are being spent the way the federal government intended them to be spent. I think that's an issue across the country.

[Norma Strachan]

I concur with Jane.

I travel a lot across Canada, and I have colleagues in other provinces who are in situations comparable to mine. I'm surprised by the commonality. I've seen some great devolution agreements. In Quebec the devolution worked out quite well. In Alberta the devolution agreement has worked out quite well. My concern would be, whatever partnerships there are and whatever the management model is, that the federal government maintains some guidelines and directions about how the dollars should be spent in the interests of citizens, not in the interest of just one group, one silo group.

The model you mentioned, our IMMPowerBC program, actually is a Skills Connect contract, and that's an example of where the federal government contributed money to the B.C. Ministry of Economic Development, with some guidelines as to how it was to be delivered. It was to be delivered for skilled immigrants, but there was a requirement for a financial contribution from the immigrants to partake in that program.

[Shyla Dutt]

I have a slightly different view, in that B.C. is very unique, as are other regions. The composition of the population is very different. In our experience, what we've found is that programs such as the racism-free workplace strategy are formulated in Ottawa. When you talk to the regional offices about programs or proposals, they have to go to Ottawa for approval and they have very little sensibility. I don't blame them. They're not here every day living our reality. They don't have the cognizance of what it is. We find we are often responding to what's already been designed over there, which is so different, especially when you look at those types of issues. Given that B.C. has the highest proportion of visible minorities.... For instance, if you look at some of the other groups in terms of disabilities or first nations, we have a very unique composition, and it doesn't work for us.

I will come back to your question. Even in B.C., like in any other province, the situation of an urban city centre like Vancouver, Toronto, Winnipeg, or Montreal, it's very different from the other regions...from parts of B.C. itself, the province itself. I think you have to look very locally at what makes sense. What makes sense in Vancouver does not in Prince George or Prince Rupert. That kind of local responsiveness is very important. The program delivery, the program approval, has to take place very locally. I think that's where it has to focus. The idea of having an audit framework, a performance measure framework, and indicators developed somewhere is so process oriented...and not concrete delivery oriented.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

A quick response, please, Ms. Worton.

[Jane Worton]

I completely agree with what Shyla said. What I'm advocating for are some minimum standards across the country and great flexibility in local and regional program delivery. The urban development agreements are a prime example of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Perhaps I can just indulge the committee. We have about 12 minutes left. So that you can all have one round each, do you mind if we just go to four minutes?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll go for four minutes. So we'll get three rounds in here.

Mr. Regan, four minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

As you know, the Fathers of Confederation, as they were called...the four colonies essentially came together and agreed to take a bunch of areas of responsibility and put them over here and created a new order of government that had responsibility for a certain number of things. What they didn't include was the regulation of the professions, like the medical profession, including nurses and doctors, like lawyers, engineers, etc.

What interests me here is what role the Government of Canada can play. What it tried to do in the past, of course, was to put pressure on provinces to work together to recognize immigrants' credentials, to make sure this moved more smoothly, and there had been a variety of initiatives to try to assist that process.

The question is this. If the Government of Canada doesn't have any power to say to the provinces, you, Ontario, must have the same regulations as Nova Scotia, or vice versa, and you must coordinate this so the standards are the same...? Is it better to have the Government of Canada doing that? No question, this is a national problem, and there are national objectives here. I think there is a role for the Government of Canada. I'm just trying to define what it ought to be. Or should the provinces be coming together and saying, okay, we're going to create a multi-province organization like COFI, which is going to do this?

What's your view on that? You mentioned the nurses, so it struck my mind.

[Norma Strachan]

I'm not familiar enough with the politics around this to know what's doable and what's not. If you could get the provinces to come together--and to some extent I hear they're trying to work on some of those issues collectively, through the forum of labour market ministers, and so on--I think there needs to be an impetus or an incentive that's put in there from the federal government.

It could be a hobby looking at what's going on with the government and the disparate bodies across Canada. If you get a change in government in one province, if you have four provinces working together on one issue and you get one provincial election, it could throw everything off, and for that reason I'd go national.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Since I have so little time, let me go back to asking the two of you to answer the question I asked earlier, if you feel like answering it, about the role of organizations that do the facilitating, promoting, and coordinating.

Ms. Worton is keen to answer. Go ahead.

[Jane Worton]

It's time. It's money. There's one extra piece. It's actually really difficult to do advocacy work or to be seen to be doing advocacy work when you are also applying for contracts from that government, and that is one of the pieces we hear quite frequently. Front-line service delivery organizations feel that they will be penalized for doing what they consider to be advocacy.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

The real question or the debate is this. Why should the Government of Canada fund the groups that do the facilitating, promoting, and coordinating? That's what I'd like to clarify for the government.

[Jane Worton]

We are rooted in the community and we're engaging with all sectors, and we have the time to be able to be a point of contact for the governments--to be able to say, here are some of the issues. We can identify the key issues, and then the government can take those up into policy.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

The thing I am looking for here is this. In order for the direct service delivery to happen, why is it essential that groups like yours or groups that are doing these kinds of coordinating and advocacy functions be funded? That's really the essence of it.

You can finish, but I'm out of time.

[Jane Worton]

I don't know if anybody else has something to add. From my perspective, we're bringing a number of players together. It's preventing duplication. It's ensuring a continuity of service. We're able to discuss policy together. We're able to bridge some of the sectoral gaps, look at all three levels that have had a horizontal and vertical approach to policy development and service delivery.

[Norma Strachan]

There are advisory services to government as well. We're providing a service to government. I just need to clarify that this aspect is not getting any funding from either the federal or provincial governments--for the role that we play in advocacy.

[Jane Worton]

We also are primarily funded by community organizations, foundations.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I guess I have literacy on the brain.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

We are going to move to Madame Savoie, for four minutes.