Human Resources Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Karyn Ferguson]

Our labour market research takes a look at the larger contextual relationship, in terms of where employees come from and where the industries are that are employing logistics people. Our community asks our professional membership as well as general logistics practitioners. We share the information and then try to get a context from Statistics Canada.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Diane, I think it was you, for the Retail Council, who really liked the programs that involved youth at risk. You said these were very successful. What was your measurement of success? How did you measure it?

[Diane Brisebois]

The measure of success was, one, participation in the program from the youth at risk who were working at or socializing with the Gateway Cafe, as one example. So number one is their signing on for the program; two is literally going through the certification program for sales associate, and in some cases—it was quite astounding—also first-level store manager; three, the number of industry members who came on board and said they would hire those individuals immediately; and four, the fact that all of them are still in the workforce. So it's been very encouraging.

But as I said earlier, it has to be a cooperative effort. We talked about the issue of the booming economy and having a difficult time finding employees, and I can tell you we've been told by our retailers that in fact they'll hire people who don't even speak French or English. They don't care. That's how bad it is.

We talked about literacy, but we also talked about English or French as a second language being a huge issue, and at the same time, about tapping into areas such as youth at risk, the disabled, and aboriginals as great opportunities. The issue, though, is proper training support from government, and we've received it from HRSDC, but also making sure the industry is there to support the program and to provide the jobs once those people get the training.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

In your industry you emphasize equal pay for equal work. Would you define that? I'm thinking that in the retail industry, if you have a gentleman and a lady clerk, they're both going to be paid the same. Are you telling me they aren't? Is that what you are saying?

[Diane Brisebois]

No, in retail we don't see the disparity as much. We used to see it at the management level, and it was specifically because there were fewer women than men. But our last research showed that in fact there are as many women at the management rank as men and that the salaries are at par, so we were delighted.

However, we know that disparity does exist in different areas. In retail generally, the women and men are paid competitively, based on their competency, so it's not as big an issue. But if we look at the overall population and the people we are bringing in or trying to bring into our sectors, there's no question that there's evidence to show that women are not paid as well as men for the same job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Yelich. That's all your time.

We're going to move to the second round now. Mr. Regan, you'll have five minutes.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I have a couple of further questions in the short time I have.

Let me go back to Ms. Brisebois for one second. This is a very short question, I hope. It will hopefully be a short answer as well, if you can do that .

What's your reaction to the suggestion of increasing the minimum wage rate? Mind you, the federal minimum wage rate doesn't affect retail very much, obviously, but I'm still interested in your reaction to it.

[Diane Brisebois]

It's interesting that we're asked that question often, simply because there's a misconception about retail generally: that most employees make minimum wage. In fact, if we look at Alberta, for example, the average wage for a person at entry level—for cashier, for example—is $12-plus, so it's well above minimum wage.

When we surveyed our members, over 85% of the retail sector was paying at least 25% above minimum wage for entry-level positions. So it has not been an issue for our members across the country.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Let me turn to Ms. Ferguson, from the Logistics Institute. What is the value and the importance of sector councils? Maybe I'm asking you to state the obvious, but how would you put it in a nutshell? I'll give you a chance.

[Karyn Ferguson]

The sector councils really serve as a voice for the larger stakeholders. So with our labour market research, what we're doing for the organizations that work with us is making them aware of the fact that there are disparities among their female and male employees. We are very much trying to help them in terms of increasing the workforce that's available to them, just by making awareness one of our first priorities.

In terms of school and the word “transition”, for example, for the Logistics Institute, there are a lot of people working in logistics who don't identify themselves as working in a career in logistics. You go to the students and you talk to them, at the post-secondary or even high school level, and say “You know what an accountant is. You know what a doctor is. You know what a lawyer is. Do you know that you have certain talents and abilities that you can use in a career in logistics that's going to provide you with a good income and a good career, where you'll be able to contribute to society in the way you want to?”

So it's the awareness right there in terms of getting people into the workforce, and then beyond that, it's helping organizations understand how they train these individuals and provide for opportunities.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

What's the nature of the skills that are required in logistics work and supply chain work, and what level of literacy? It's probably a range, but you tell me.

[Karyn Ferguson]

Absolutely. It's actually a huge range, anywhere from the entry level. You can work with skills and competencies that are very physical in terms of working in a warehouse and what's required there, but beyond that, what's happening is that there is a general level of sophistication that's required now in terms of logistics and supply chains because you're dealing with customers. So customer service, communications, and literacy are incredibly important. Numeracy is also incredibly important. You're trying to do analysis and improve your operations and make them more effective and responsive to your customers, which makes us more competitive.

They understand now, at an entry level, how all those skills contribute to their ability to move up, right through to the strategic level, where you're dealing with people who have asset management and strategic human resource management. So these are the people who are making decisions as to who is going to be employed, where they're going to be deployed, and how they train and develop those individuals.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

How many people do you think are employed in this kind of work, and what's the size of the looming shortage that you see?

[Karyn Ferguson]

In terms of the logistics workforce, depending upon how you define logistics, you could be working with a labour market that is upwards of 680,000 to 700,000 people in Canada.

In terms of the workforce, again it's the both issues. There's a general shortage in terms of having enough bodies to fill the positions that are out there. There's also a dearth of the skills that people are looking for. So we have both aspects of it.

I can cite a couple of issues. One is the entry level. There's a severe shortage of people working in logistics relative to transportation and truck drivers.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I have only a few seconds.

[Karyn Ferguson]

There is a severe shortage there, and then right through to people who have systems thinking and process thinking to help sustain the competitive advantage for their organization.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you. I think Ms. Brisebois wanted to comment on sector councils.

[Diane Brisebois]

Yes, briefly, we certainly think sector councils are extremely important. In fact, working with HRDC in the development of sector councils, we were able to develop certification programs. We realize that, for pay to be competitive, we need to increase the level of professionalism in retail, for example, and if it wasn't for the formation of a sector council and the discussion about forming a sector council for retail, that training and the funding for that training would not have been available today. It was extremely important to us, and we see it as extremely valuable.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I'm sorry, I guess my time is up. But I was curious to know what that meant in terms of the higher skill level and why that can allow you to pay more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead. You can answer that question.

[Diane Brisebois]

In an economy as strong as we are experiencing right now, there's no question that there's competition for good employees, and while it is creating some angst for many businesses, what it does do, though, is usually put pressure on wages, and it also makes companies understand that they need to invest in training. It is not about just recruiting, it's about retaining.

The expense comes in losing those employees. So at the end of the day, while it is putting an enormous amount of pressure on companies and on future investments, it's also putting pressure on wages and increasing, we believe, training and professionalism in the industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We'll move to our next questioner. Monsieur Lessard, cinq minutes, s'il vous plaît.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I still have several questions, but I'll limit myself to asking three, since I have only five minutes left.

Many of you talked about labour mobility. The representatives of the Logistics Institute told us that they had observed some worker movement between and within the ranks of companies. Would you care to share any observations with us on interprovincial mobility? Do you have any findings that you can share with us?

[Karyn Ferguson]

I can tell you that a number of the organizations that are working with the institute are national and have many branch offices, and among our professional members and among individuals who are candidates for certification, there is a great deal of mobility between provinces. I can't give you statistics. Anecdotally, I can tell you that we have a number of updates in terms of where our members are located, and it's usually from Ontario to the western provinces.

There is mobility between provinces, and again, because there's such a standard of competencies that's understood across Canada, that mobility is relatively easily done.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Some have said that many businesses are shutting down in Eastern Canada and that these workers could possibly be enticed to move west. Have you considered that? From a family standpoint, practically speaking, that seems highly unlikely, particularly since many of these workers are older. Have you considered that?