Human Resources Committee on June 1st, 2006

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Improving efficiency, I guess, in a sense to reduce the transition times and make it easier for people to find work more quickly.

[Barbara Glover]

Yes, you're answering your question very well, if I could say so.

There's an efficiency argument that affects the rate of unemployment and it is key to the functioning of the labour market. Cliff said earlier that Canada actually does very well in that regard. When we're measured by the OECD and the International Monetary Fund, which do studies, we are not only very good at that--the country has improved over the last 15 or 20 years--we are better than we used to be.

That's only the first part of your question, and I'm okay to leave it there.

Your second question is whether there are any incentives in any social programs that may slow down the speed of adjustment. The answer is, again, that it's going to be complex perhaps in some circumstances and in some cases, but you have to weigh that with a range of reasons that people will move, that people will adjust. It's a complex calculation based on many factors.

Obviously I'm saying the same thing I said last time you asked that.

[Cliff Halliwell]

I'd just like to add here that I think implicit in questions like that is the question of the unemployed in Atlantic Canada. In fact, there are more unemployed people in the Toronto greater metropolitan area who are--

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I want to correct you on that, though. I'm not trying to specifically point to one area.

[Cliff Halliwell]

But I know it is raised quite often, and we should just understand that there are more unemployed in Toronto, for example, than in all four Atlantic provinces combined. So you have to ask the question in the context of the unemployed in Toronto against the jobs in Alberta, as well.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Yes, okay.

This one minute that I have is going to be difficult.

Talking about this unskilled component, when I was young I worked in a convenience store, then I worked as a waiter before I went to university, and it was part of my experience. I look at it as part of my education.

Has there ever been a study done to take a look at a non-traditional education system that takes kids like Tony was talking about, who may have dropped out of school or who may come from a less advantageous place in their lives--because we do have an unskilled labour shortage in Alberta as well--using that part of the process to transition people and educate them? I don't know. Maybe it could be in conjunction with working in those types of jobs and training on the side for more skilled labour down the road.

Has that been a part of the strategy? In 10 seconds.

[Karen Jackson]

Yes.

What you likely want to know more about is the youth employment strategy that you'll find in our department, which actually does some of that kind of work with at-risk youth, bringing them into a full range of work experience in first jobs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Murphy.

Round three, five minutes, please.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Just for my own education, I want to pursue the issue of the measurement of productivity in Canada and how it's determined. It's my understanding that it's basically the aggregate GDP divided by the workers in Canada, and that would determine the productivity.

Is that basically correct?

[Cliff Halliwell]

Yes.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

We are basically a resource-based country, and when we compare our productivity to other OECD countries, especially the United States.... To give an example, in Alberta, when the price of oil goes from $35 a barrel to $72 a barrel, that would have enormous repercussions in their level of productivity, but it really wouldn't be based on the normal determinants such as innovation, education, research, and skills training that you would expect to be the driving determinants of increases in productivity. It's basically a function of the fundamental resource basically doubling in value. You take the aggregate GDP, you divide by the number of workers, and your productivity has gone up.

Is it really not a false comparison here?

[Cliff Halliwell]

Actually, that is false, because what we use when we compare productivity across countries is real GDP, which is the GDP adjusted for the price level in the country. So when the price of oil goes up, the value of oil production goes up, but in fact the volume of oil production may not be changed. And it's the volume of oil production that goes into real GDP, so you won't get that kind of spurious effect from a change in the price of what you produce when you look at productivity.

Clearly, higher oil prices are inducing a lot more investment in oil and gas exploration in Alberta, and they're certainly giving people more spending power, which is boosting GDP in Alberta. But the simple fact that the price is higher doesn't have an impact on the GDP measures or comparisons.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Going back to an issue that Mr. Lake was pursuing on the EI situation, have there been any studies...? When I look at it, I see the possibility exists that there are disincentives built into the system, not only for labour mobility but also, and perhaps more importantly, for workers taking advantage of skills training and upgrading.

Have there been any studies on that issue looking at it from a pan-Canadian basis?

[Barbara Glover]

There are two questions. One is whether EI inhibits mobility, and the other is whether EI inhibits training. Is that the second question?

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Basically, yes.

[Barbara Glover]

I'll start with the second question.

There is a study on the first issue. I've been talking around the conclusions, and maybe it would be a good idea the next time if we bring that study here. The conclusion will say it's very complicated around mobility, and it's not entirely clear the impact employment insurance is having. They will look over different time periods and different communities. So we will bring that next time.

The question on training is a good question. Of course, if people receive employment insurance, it's possible that they will also receive active labour market benefit, which could include some kind of skills upgrading. So to a certain extent, if people are in receipt of EI, they may well be getting some kind of skills upgrading. So that's a partial answer to the question.

This is a hypothesis. It is also the case, though, that when people are on EI, they are receiving a certain income. So if you compare that to someone who is unemployed and not on EI, they possibly—depending on a whole bunch of factors—have a little more financial capacity to take on training on their own, if they weren't doing it within the EI system.

[Shawn Murphy, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

I have one last quick question.

Has there been any empirical research done as to whether or not the provision of quality child care has any bearing on the labour participation rate?

[Barbara Glover]

Whether the provision of child care has a positive impact on participation in the labour market? We did do a little fast review of the literature on that question. I know that the child care folks, who are not in the room, would be in a better position to answer that. But it is generally the case that the availability of child care is a positive factor on women's labour force participation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Murphy.

Five minutes, Mr. Brown.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to speak about what Mr. Martin was touching on a bit before in terms of foreign assessment credentials for physicians. I know one thing he mentioned was that it's possibly an area you could speak about with Health Canada, but the sense I'm getting is that when you talk to officials at Health Canada it's a foreign credential issue. When you speak to people here, it's a health issue. It's very frustrating, because I have the same concerns in my riding as they have in many small communities. The national average for physician shortages is one out of thirty. In small towns it tends to be one out of four.

I had someone who was a surgeon in his country come and visit me a month ago. He can't afford to write the equivalency exams because of the costs associated with taking time off work and for purchasing the books. There is obviously a language barrier and he needs to learn new medical terminology, but this is someone who practised as a surgeon for 20 years in his country.

So what I'm curious about is, what can be done? What is being worked on in terms of making that bridge easier? With the funds associated with the new Canadian agency for the assessment and recognition of foreign credentials, that's encouraging. I certainly hope there is some allotment in there recognizing the difficulties that new Canadians have in meeting our equivalency exams.

I realize that's one stage, and there is also the other problem with a lack of residency spots. But particularly on the front of help and assistance being given for those who have significant costs associated with writing their equivalency exams, what government program is going to be associated, particularly for physicians?

[Karen Jackson]

Just to be clear, when I suggested talking to Health Canada, I was specifically addressing the question about what we knew about caps on enrolment in medical schools. But actually on the issues of credential recognition and doctors, I'm going to ask Corinne to tell you some of the things that are being done and are being supported at the moment.

[Corinne Prince-St-Amand]

Thank you very much.

May I begin by telling you a little bit about the most recent statistics we have in terms of internationally trained doctors in this country? In 2005, we know there were approximately 14,000 practising international medical graduates in Canada. Those were people who had actually gotten through the barriers that you were describing and were practising. What we don't know and where we are lacking reliable data is how many others there are in the country who are unable to obtain their licences.

The program we're running, the foreign credential recognition program, has been working for the past two years with the Medical Council of Canada to address this specific issue around credential recognition. We have three projects running with them as we speak.

The first is an online assessment so that foreign-trained doctors, in their home country prior to arrival on Canadian soil, can do an electronic assessment on the Internet to check their credentials against Canadian requirements and to determine, before even making a decision to emigrate to Canada, whether or not they generally stack up and whether they'll have some issues in integrating into their profession when they arrive.

Secondly, we have another project running with the Medical Council of Canada that gives their evaluation exam. Historically, this exam--and it has to be written by those who are Canadian-trained as well as those who are foreign-trained--was offered once a year in Canada, in Toronto. What this meant for foreign-trained physicians was that they had to fly to Toronto to write the evaluating exam at a huge cost to themselves. What this project does now is to offer the evaluating exam in many countries around the world, as well as in Canada, and many more times a year, thereby helping to increase the number of potential foreign applicants who are able to actually write the exam each year with a view to, hopefully, increasing the number of doctors we have in our communities.

The final project we have in place right now, again with the Medical Council of Canada in order to assist physicians and address the demand in all areas of the country, is something called a national credential verification agency. What this agency will provide, in essence, is one-stop shopping for physicians who want to come to Canada. If you've ever talked to someone in a licensed occupation who wants to come to Canada, you'll know that they have to bring many copies of their original documents. Those documents then have to be assessed and recognized by the appropriate regulatory authorities prior to allowing that individual to then write the licensing exams and obtain licensure.

This agency will allow foreign-trained doctors to send one set of documentation to this agency and have the credentials assessed and recognized. It will then create, as well, an ongoing database for that physician if he or she gets other accreditations throughout their medical career. It will keep an ongoing history and list of all their ongoing credentials throughout their practice.

This means that instead of a health authority having to first check that the credentials are not fraudulent, that they are properly assessed and the individual meets all the licensing requirements, the employers will only now have to call one place. They will not have to also check all of the various places the doctor has practised in the world to see if those were legitimate and reputable hospitals. All of that kind of work will be done by the national credential verification agency for physicians--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're pretty much out of time here, Mr. Brown. Just a quick answer...the cost of the exam. Was that the question? Do you have a cost of that?

[Corinne Prince-St-Amand]

Yes, I have. For all of the work that we've done--

[Karen Jackson]

No, no. The cost to the individual.