Evidence of meeting #40 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was poor.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Sarlo  Professor, Department of Economics, Nipissing University, As an Individual
John Stapleton  Research Director and St. Christopher House Research Fellow, Task Force on Modernizing Income Security for Working-Age Adults
Vincent Calderhead  Senior Staff Lawyer, Nova Scotia Legal Aid, National Anti-Poverty Organization
Greg deGroot-Maggetti  Member, National Council of Welfare
Ross Finnie  Professor, School of Policy Studies, Queen's University, As an Individual

12:40 p.m.

Professor, School of Policy Studies, Queen's University, As an Individual

Prof. Ross Finnie

Yes, I will.

First of all, on my results, I got about the same results whether I used the LICO or the LIM, which is the half median income adjusted for family size. And then I fix it over time. Again, on that basic result, about half of it is transitory, and half of it is long-term. That is only, I might say, because of some interesting data sets that Statistics Canada has put together that are able to contribute to our understanding of this. It's very important, because you would have very different policy measures if, say, you thought that most of the poor dipped into poverty for a year and then moved out a year or two later.

What you would want to do there is put most of your eggs in the income support basket, to the degree you wanted to do it; that is to say, they're poor for a year, but they're going to move out, so you just top up their income to the degree that you think is appropriate, and they'll get along in life themselves. If there are more long-term poor, that means there's a need for greater intervention to help those people get a foot back into the labour market, ideally. You say you can't do anything about it; then you need a long-term income support plan. Identifying those two different kinds of poor is integral to identifying the kinds of programs and the policy initiatives that you should then bring to bear.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

A number of the presenters this afternoon have mentioned that we want to use Canadians' dollars effectively.

Mr. Finnie, you used the phrase, “I don't think Canadians want money thrown down a well”.

Mr. deGroot-Maggetti, you called for a strategic approach. I think that's the same idea, something that's focused on getting results.

I'm wondering if we can have all the presenters comment on whether or not they think it would be worthwhile for this committee to seek consensus as to a definition of what poverty actually is. Some of you have said we can use all the measures; let's work together; let's not get bogged down with that. Would it not be beneficial if, as a government, we were able to establish some guidelines that would say yes, this is the consensus? It might be a combination of all the formulas. I'm not sure what it would be. Would you agree that having a consensus on what poverty is would help us focus our policies and our initiatives to actually see if they're effective, to actually see if we're making progress?

From year to year, without being able to recognize the problem, we're not able to solve the problem. We can't provide the policies that are necessary to see if they're actually effective.

Mr. Chair, I know I have little time.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You're out of time. Just address it to one individual, Mr. Hiebert.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC

We can ask them to say yes or no.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. deGroot.

12:45 p.m.

Member, National Council of Welfare

Greg deGroot-Maggetti

As a first step, I would encourage you to come to consensus on the fact that we need a poverty reduction strategy. That's the first step, in those places that have introduced them. The next step is you decide on your indicators. That's what the European Union has done with their anti-poverty and social exclusion strategies. That's what Quebec has done with its law to eradicate poverty. First is consensus on a commitment for a plan to reduce it, and then the next step is to choose what indicator or indicators you're going to have.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. That's all the time we have.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today. This is obviously a topic we could talk about for many meetings, but we appreciate all of you taking the time to be here and to contribute to the discussion today.

What we're going to do now is go in camera to discuss some other things.

[Proceedings continue in camera]