Human Resources Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[Jim Sinclair]

The dispute with Telus workers in British Columbia and Alberta was a classic example of a massive wholesale scabbing operation to undercut workers' rights. The collective agreement they finally signed under the circumstances was a huge step backwards. We lost thousands of full-time jobs in British Columbia and Alberta. That industry has changed dramatically.

Mr. Sims said in his report that if the union is undercut by the company's action to bring in strikebreakers, action should be taken. We all laughed. The union went to them with the classic case where we said if there was ever a case it would be this one where the ruling would be that these scabs, or replacement workers, are undercutting the workers, and nothing happened.

What he recommended doesn't work. We have to change that. There have been many cases in our history, the most recent one in B.C., where the government changed the labour code without a third-party process, or three people. Depending on which side of the coin you were on, you supported it or you didn't. In this particular case, business supported the changes despite the fact that labour had no input. Those kinds of things happen.

This one is not going to be resolved. As long we sit here all day, the two parties at this table are not going to agree. This is a question of balance, and you have to right that balance.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move for five minutes to Ms. Davies.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Could I clarify? After my five minutes question and answer is there one more five minutes from a Conservative member and then the witnesses will be concluded? We don't go to another round. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

There was going to be another round because we started late because of what we dealt with beforehand.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

You're saying there's a seven-minute round and a five-minute round?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's correct.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

We will have concluded the five-minute round?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's correct. Then if there are still people who want to ask questions we'll have a third round of five minutes each.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm concerned that we're going to run out of time. I'd like to know what you're proposing to do, because the time on the committee agenda says 3:30 to 5:30. If you go to a second round of five minutes we won't have adequate time to discuss future business. I'd like to get this resolved.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Once again, I'll leave that up to the will of the committee.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

What do you mean the will of the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Just what I said, the will of the committee. You're part of the committee, and if the committee wants to ask more questions they can do that.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

But you're the one who set the agenda, Mr. Chairman, and who seems to be running everything here. I think you need to establish whether or not the committee is either going to stay later—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I've indicated two rounds. The Liberals have indicated they'd like another question, so there would be one more round of five—

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I would like you to put to the other members whether or not, if there is a second round of five minutes, this committee will continue meeting. I'd like you to ask the committee whether or not they will continue, even if it's after 5:30, to go through future business and the calendar. I want that established now. Otherwise, I'm going to move my motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, I'll put the question.

Is the committee prepared to meet to discuss the future business as we've indicated, even if the time goes over 5:30?

Mr. Savage.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It will be one round--NDP, one Conservative, one Liberal--and then we would do the business?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

There would be one Liberal, one Conservative, and then we'd do the business.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

It would go to myself, then a Conservative, then a Liberal, and then a Conservative?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's correct.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

There was a reference made earlier, I think by you, Mr. Alley or Mr. Koshman, about the example in the Comox Valley—it was you, Mr. Alley, yes, the newspaper. I don't know the details of what happened there, but you gave us an example of how the anti-replacement-worker legislation in B.C. doesn't work. But it seems to me what you were speaking about actually is the strike. I'm not clear on what your issue is. I'd also like to ask Mr. Sinclair if he was familiar with that issue in terms of what happened there. The problem was the strike, not the fact that this legislation was in existence.

[Doug Alley]

What happened in that case was that because he could not bring in replacement workers, he went out of business. Maybe I should have been more explicit in that. If he had been allowed to continue to operate during the labour dispute, he would not have gone out of business. He could have attempted to at least print for his customers. In not being able to do it at all, he lost his customers to other printers.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay.

[Jim Sinclair]

That's speculation at the best of times. If he had settled with his union and made the agreement first, he wouldn't be out of business either. We're all speculating here. There are a lot of things that go into the decision of a company to go bankrupt or not. The vast majority of companies in this country go bankrupt without any reference to labour relations. They get into trouble without any reference to labour relations. You have to separate these things out again.

In the federal field, the vast majority of people are unionized. The vast majority of people don't use replacement workers and have no intention of using replacement workers. Unfortunately, we do have some situations in which they do use them, to the great detriment of working people and ordinary folks.

That's the balance we're looking for here. Despite our legislation in B.C., working people have fallen behind in real incomes. We all agree with that at this table. It's not like we suddenly climbed up on a horse and got to ride off into the wilderness with everything else. The fact is that it just made it a little more equal for workers at a time when companies have more and more power, which is the other side that no one is talking about.

Companies are more powerful when it comes to lifting up their operations and moving them anywhere they want them to go or, during a dispute, to contracting out far and wide. We need to have some control in that so that workers and employers can solve their problems and can't sneak around the back door.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Davies.

We're going to move to Ms. Yelich, for five minutes.