Human Resources Committee on June 6th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I'm calling this meeting to order.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development, and Status of Persons with Disabilities will hear today from the Honourable Diane Finley, Minister of Human Resources and Social Development, and from the Honourable Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Minister of Labour, on the estimates.

As this meeting is being broadcast, I would like to take the opportunity to relay two messages to the public before we start the meeting. First, I would like to announce that this committee has launched its 2006 edition of the Centennial Flame Research Award, which has a monetary value of $4,500 this year. Canadians living with disabilities are eligible to apply for this award, and the deadline for submitting a proposal is September 8, 2006. For further information please refer to the front page of the parliamentary website at www.parl.gc.ca.

Secondly, I would also like to take this opportunity to invite people and interested groups that are preoccupied by the question of employability in Canada to follow the work of this committee as it embarks on a related study. The committee will be hearing from witnesses this spring, and we will also be travelling across Canada in the fall to meet with people facing various challenges regarding employability.

To appear as a witness before the committee or express your views in a brief, you may either e-mail the committee at [email protected] or contact the clerk of the committee for further information. Please note that submissions to the committee cannot exceed the ten-page limit and must be accompanied by a one-page summary.

The committee will now devote its attention to Ms. Finley and the message she has for us today.

If I could talk to all committee members, now that I've had a chance to see you in action in terms of the timeframe, I will give you a one-minute warning on your time, and I will cut you off at the appropriate time. We all love to chat around this table. So I will give you fair warning as we move forward, so we can try to get in many rounds of questions.

We will start with the minister's opening comments.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Minister of Human Resources and Social Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm pleased to have been invited to speak before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development, and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

I have looked forward to meeting with you. This committee has earned an enviable reputation for proposing valuable actions and solutions to the real-life challenges facing Canadians today.

I welcome this opportunity to bring you up to date on the activities of Human Resources and Social Development, HRSD, through our main estimates for 2006-2007. As you can appreciate, the past few months have been a time of transition for HRSD, as it was created only last February through the consolidation of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada and Social Development Canada.

The new department directly touches the lives of every Canadian. Our programs, policies, and partnerships support individuals in difficult times, help Canadians create opportunities, and deliver services that help people across the country. Quite simply stated, HRSD is about enabling all Canadians to make choices that will allow them to live productive and rewarding lives.

The HRSD portfolio encompasses a lot of things: employment insurance, workplace skills, learning, initiatives for children and families, persons with disabilities and seniors, along with such programs as the Canada Pension Plan and old age security, homelessness, and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. That's quite a broad range and touches every single Canadian.

An important part of my mandate is to improve the delivery of programs and services to Canadians through Service Canada. I'd like to point out some of the ways that we are moving forward on this front. We're making great strides in improving access to government information and services through new mobile and outreach services. By the end of 2006, our goal is to provide 90% of Canadians with access to a Service Canada point of service within 50 kilometres of where they live.

We now have more than 125 new points of service, many in rural and remote locations that were previously under-served. We've done this through the use of mobile outreach, not investing in new bricks and mortar but providing service in other facilities as well as through our mobile vehicles. For example, we have a number of new outreach sites serving aboriginal communities in northern Canada, through which we've been able to identify a broad range of potential beneficiaries of our support programs.

Service Canada is working with a growing number of federal departments, provinces, and territories to move the one-stop-shopping approach forward. This makes sense from the point of view of the citizen and provides better value to Canadian taxpayers.

For example, we're partnering with Transport Canada and Service New Brunswick to deliver pleasure-craft licences across Canada. We're partnering with the Government of Ontario on an online integrated birth registration service where new parents can apply for both a birth certificate and a social insurance number for the newborn. In Manitoba, we have three bilingual centres where citizens can get services from the municipal, provincial, and federal governments. Another popular service that we now offer is passport availability at 35 locations across Canada. We've already helped over 40,000 Canadians with this service.

Next week the governments of Canada and British Columbia are co-hosting, at the first deputy minister level, a federal-provincial-territorial meeting on service delivery issues, to look at how to work together on serving Canadians better.

While the Labour Program is still part of the HRSDC family, it is managed under the capable leadership of my colleague, Minister Jean-Pierre Blackburn, who is with us today and will be addressing you shortly.

A new structure was the strategic decision to respond to Canadians' expectations for streamlined government and good value for every tax dollar spent. Equally, it reflects our government's recognition that Canada's success depends on the ability of Canadians and our communities to reach their full potential. Since forming government, we've made it clear that HRSD will continue to help individuals at all stages of their life to create opportunities. This commitment was reinforced in the Speech from the Throne and new initiatives announced in the recent budget tabled by Finance Minister Flaherty.

Appropriations in the main estimates will enable us to move this agenda forward. But as I'm sure you can appreciate, the main estimates do not reflect the Government of Canada's recent budget. That elaboration will be provided in detail this fall when the report on plans and priorities will be tabled.

This newly created department comprises Human Resources and Skills Development and Social Development. It has planned expenditures on programs and services of more than $78 billion, of which the vast majority, totalling $73 billion, are provided as statutory payments to individual Canadians through employment insurance, the Canada Pension Plan, old age security, and other statutory transfer payment programs.

The remaining 6% includes transfer payments of $650 million to provinces and territories for the purpose of early learning and child care; $222 million to provinces and territories under the multilateral framework for labour market agreements for persons with disabilities; and $900 million to support individuals, communities, the private and voluntary sectors, and other levels of government in the achievement of shared human resources and social development goals through grants and contributions.

The 2006-2007 main estimates reflect HRSD and SDC as separate departments under the section for Human Resources and Skills Development. These estimates exclude employment insurance, $16 billion, and the Canada Pension Plan, $26 billion in benefits and costs, which we fund from these two specific accounts.

The 2006-2007 main estimates show an increase of $2.6 billion from 2005-2006. This is mainly due to increases of $1.8 billion as statutory payments to individual Canadians and to the transfer payments of $650 million to provinces and territories for the purpose of early learning and child care.

CMHC's main estimates for 2006-2007 in the amount of $2.266 billion cover the areas of assisted housing, affordable housing, housing repair and improvement programs, research and information transfer, and CMHC International.

I've just outlined our main estimates, but because we have a new government I think it would be helpful if I laid out our new initiatives in budget 2006 and how they impact on HRSDC and build on the commitments we made to Canadians.

In looking at the challenges ahead, our department has been tasked with ensuring that Canadians have choices through more focused support to children, families, seniors, people with disabilities, and their communities. At the same time, we're supporting economic growth and competitiveness through investments in post-secondary education and increased individual supports for apprenticeships and students.

I'm very proud that the Prime Minister has conferred these responsibilities on HRSD, and I know that the public service is up to the challenge of delivering this very ambitious agenda.

The Government of Canada recognizes that strong families are the building blocks of society and the key to our future. That is why we are investing $5.2 billion over two years in children and families--for children, $3.7 billion over two years in the universal child care benefit and $250 million per year for up to 25,000 new child care spaces each year beginning in 2007. The universal child care benefit will go directly to the parents of Canada's 2.1 million pre-schoolers. It will provide $100 per month for each child under six, to help parents supplement their options for child care that best suit their family's needs.

The second component of our universal child care plan is our child care spaces initiative. Under this program, we want to help increase the supply of child care spaces, but to do it in a way that meets the unique demands of families who need more responsive and flexible choices.

In support of strong communities, the budget provides for new housing trust funds for provinces and territories for affordable housing, including funds for aboriginal people off reserve and northern housing. These housing trusts will help Canadians find a safe and affordable place to call home. These expenditures are being managed directly by the Minister of Finance. This investment builds on approximately $2 billion per year in housing programs administered by CMHC, now part of my portfolio, which enables thousands of low-income Canadians to renovate substandard homes and obtain affordable housing.

Mr. Chair, budget 2006 underscores that gaining skills is the best way for Canadians to access employment. Investments in education and training are critical to Canadian's future as well as to the productivity and competitiveness of our national economy. That is why the budget introduces a new apprenticeship incentive grant that will benefit 100,000 first- and second-year apprentices, as well as two new tax measures, an apprenticeship job creation tax credit for employers to hire new apprentices, and a new tools tax deduction for employed tradespeople to help with tools costs.

For students, the budget exempts all scholarships and bursary income from tax, introduces a textbook tax credit for both full-time and part-time students, and improves access to student loans. To strengthen post-secondary education infrastructure, the budget allocates $1 billion to the provinces and territories, contingent, of course, on confirmation of final financial results for 2005-06 for critical and urgent investments.

I would like to address our demographic challenges. I am delighted that the budget has committed us to consult with the provinces, territories, and other stakeholders on the creation of the Canadian agency for assessment and recognition of foreign credentials.

Mr. Chair, these priorities are broad in scope and reach, but they focus on our priorities as Canadians. In the coming months we will be engaging in consultations with the provincial and territorial governments, as well as with other key partners, as part of the government's approach to meeting the challenges facing Canadians. One of the most important initiatives is the child care spaces initiative, a component of Canada's universal child care plan.

Over the next six months HRSD will be consulting with provinces, territories, employers, and community and non-profit organizations to develop a plan to stimulate the creation of child care spaces that will respond to parents' needs. As the Minister of Human Resources and Social Development, I have also been mandated, and I quote, to “initiate discussions this spring with provinces and territories on the overall objectives for post-secondary education and training, appropriate roles, and on developing a framework for ensuring measurable results and accountability in respect of funding support”.

Our bid to encourage apprenticeships and to support apprentices in their training will also involve discussions with the provinces and territories, employers, and unions.

Engaging Canadians will be a key feature in the development of these and other initiatives. In the same way, Mr. Chair, we will consult with parliamentarians — people who ran for election because they want to make a difference in the life of our country — the same people who have the pulse of their communities and their constituents' best interests.

While the Federal Accountability Act and action plan has yet to be approved by Parliament, my officials are taking steps to ensure that all of our department's processes, policies, and services meet these new standards of accountability. The federal accountability action plan provides for a new approach to expenditure management, focused on results and value for money. I will ensure its effective implementation in my department.

The next 12 months will be demanding as we work with our partners and the provinces and territories to make the budget commitments a reality for Canadians.

As someone with a professional background in helping organizations develop strategic long-term solutions to problems, I believe strongly in involving as many people as feasible, so that we can hear all of their ideas and all of their perspectives. By doing that, we will have the benefit of many high-quality minds and ideas, and I believe we will come up with better solutions.

I recognize the importance of your work as individual parliamentarians, and I'm anxious to benefit from your insights, particularly in light of these budget commitments and the important role that will be played by HRSD. I look forward to working with you, as we aim to help all Canadians realize their goals for a better life.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Finley.

Mr. Blackburn, do you have some opening remarks as well?

[Jean-Pierre Blackburn, Conservative, Minister of Labour]

Mr. Chair, allow me to introduce the Deputy Minister, Mr. Munir Sheikh.

I'm pleased to be here this morning, especially since I was a member in the House of Commons from 1984 to 1993. I had the opportunity of being vice-chair for some time and then chair of the Standing Committee on Labour, Employment and Immigration. I therefore have a good understanding of the work you do and I can tell you the work that members of standing committees do is important in the running of a democracy and also provides assistance and support to the minister. So I am very glad to be here this morning.

I am both Minister of Labour and Minister of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec. I'd like to tell you of the recent achievements under Human Resources and Social Development Canada's Labour Program.

As my colleague Minister Diane Finley pointed out, our department has undergone major structural changes over the past months. I was entrusted with the management of the Labour Program and I'm proud to serve my country as 39^th Canadian Minister of Labour.

The Labour Program focuses on two main areas: labour-management relations and working conditions. These responsibilities affect sectors which come under federal jurisdiction, but which also involve labour-related federal-provincial-territorial cooperation, in addition to an important international scope.

As members of this committee, you make an important contribution in labour-related matters by recommending actions and making decisions which have an impact on our policies and programs. With its innovative approach, the Labour Program continues to set an example in both Canada and abroad.

First, I'd like to raise the issue of labour-management relations. My vision of Canada's labour force is based on solid and sustainable industrial relations. I want to encourage constructive union-management relations. This means building relationships between unions and employers with a view to reaching a balance — that word is important — which will make for stronger relations. We mustn't forget that in workplaces where there is no union presence, there is nevertheless an employment-based relationship, and that labour legislation plays a key role therein.

The second point I'd like to raise is consultations. Canadians tell us they want to work in workplaces geared to their particular needs, where employment and employment opportunities are available for those who wish to work, where training is accessible and where discrimination never excludes qualified people from having a career.

Labour Program officials have always sought the opinions and ideas of workplace stakeholders in the development of policies and legislation. I'm convinced that consulting our partners is a key part of addressing the needs and concerns of the workplace.

Reviewing federal labour standards is the third important issue. Our approach to the important review of part III of the Canadian Labour Code, which is almost complete, will be crucial. The previous government mandated Mr. Harry W. Arthurs, professor emeritus, to completely review part III of the Canadian Labour Code a year and a half ago. Part III had not been reviewed for 45 years.

For the past year and a half, alongside management, union and employee representatives, Mr. Arthurs commissioned a number of academic studies on which to base recommendations with a view to making changes to part III of the Canadian Labour Code. Professor Arthurs' report —who I met incidentally last February — should be submitted in June in English. Following translation, we expect the report to be made public around September.

Together, we may be called upon over the upcoming months to write a new page in history by considering and effecting positive changes to part III of the Canadian Labour Code. I'm thinking, for example, of the self-employed. These people have no protection, often don't have RRSPs, and if they are ill, end up with nothing. I myself was a self-employed worker for 11 years after leaving politics so I'm well positioned to understand the importance of this issue. I'm very much looking forward to receiving this paper. I believe there's a tremendous challenge awaiting all of us as parliamentarians over the upcoming months.

The other point I want to speak about is the workplace of the future. The Canadian economy of the future must be built from within its workplaces. Globalization, rapidly changing technologies and new ways of doing things have made our workplaces more complex than ever. These phenomena also put pressure on workers, their families and employers.

Research demonstrates that an imbalance between work and personal life takes a heavy toll on the Canadian economy and slows down productivity. It leads to increased absenteeism, high staff turnover and workplace stress. In other words, when work and home life are out of kilter, it costs Canadians billions of dollars in health care costs. The issue of balance between one's work and personal life will also be considered as part of the federal labour standards review.

A fair and inclusive workplace is my fifth point. To build a strong and united Canada, we must also build a more inclusive Canada. We must break down barriers caused by discrimination. We quite simply cannot allow ourselves to waste even an ounce of our precious human capital. We must welcome with open arms those who, traditionally, have faced hurdles to employment, namely, women, members of visible minorities, the disabled and aboriginals. And at this point, I should point out Parliament's five-year review of the Employment Equity Act is coming up. I'm quite sure this committee will play a leading role in this.

This year, we are also celebrating the 20^th anniversary of the Employment Equity Act. The rationale behind employment equity is that all Canadians should be able to fully participate in, and contribute as much as possible to, the life of this country so that Canada remains a competitive and prosperous nation.

The Labour Program staff are developing training tools, and best practices for employers and employees and conducting initiatives and activities in order to break down barriers, as far as discrimination is concerned, to employment. Recently, they implemented a new strategy for a racism-free workplace, developed as an end-point to the work conducted under the Employment Equity Act. Pan-Canadian consultations and a series of workshops took place last year. These involved employers, representatives of the major stakeholders and labour organizations, including the Association of Canadian Bankers, the Canadian Labour Congress and transport and communication employers at the federal level.

The purpose of these consultations was to identify problems, find solutions and determine best practices to eliminate obstacles to advancement in Canada's workplaces, and in addition, to build partnerships. For example, a series of videos showing employers or employees faced with racism in the workplace were produced in collaboration with the National Film Board in order to inform and educate people about the benefits of employment equity, as well as the dangers and costs associated with the discriminatory practices which occur in some of Canada's workplaces.

The sixth point is occupational health and safety, which is a crucial issue, Mr. Chair. Safety in the workplace is another problem which takes a heavy toll on the productivity of Canada's economy and on optimal use of our human capital. We're currently coming to grips with new risks and new threats such as increasing stress, economic difficulties and workplace violence. This is why we have started to develop new risk prevention and workplace violence regulations. Under these regulations, employers subject to federal legislation will be compelled to take steps to prevent accidents, injuries and illnesses.

They must be proactive rather than reactive. And on that, I remind all colleagues that 900 people lose their jobs every year in Canada as a result of workplace accidents. Also more than 300,000 people are injured or away from work every year because of injuries or workplace-related health issues. This is not something to be taken lightly. And it's not only in the workplace. I ask everyone, be it at home or in one's everyday life, to look around and be aware that a simple comment to a loved-one can help prevent an accident which, often, may have a major impact on colleagues' and family members' lives. It is up to us to be vigilant and to take the small steps necessary to avoid major ramifications.

At the recent federal-provincial-territorial Labour Ministers' meeting, which took place in Whistler in March, every Canadian Labour Minister undertook to cooperate more closely in promoting safe and healthy workplaces in Canada and to make this issue a common priority.

The seventh point concerns international labour relations. Canada place a leadership role in labour-related areas on the world stage. Canada is one of the founding members of the International Labour Organization and other international organizations dealing with labour matters. Canada plays a very active role. I'm especially looking forward to working closely with my American, Mexican, Chilean and Costarican counterparts in line with our bilateral agreements on international cooperation to enhance the application of labour-related legislation among our main trading partners.

In closing, I'd point out that the Labour Program staff are going to great lengths to assure that Canada remains a competitive and prosperous nation, and that both Canadian workers and employers have the legislation they need to thrive in an ever-changing workplace.

You should note that I'm very much enthusiastic about working with the committee in meeting the challenges that are await us. The various files we will be working on over the coming weeks, whether it be pay equity, worker protection, the Labour Code Part III reforms or employment equity will move the Department of Labour to the foreground. I will be happy to cooperate with you in ensuring Canada plays a leadership role in these various areas.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and all committee members, for your attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Blackburn.

We're going to start our first round of questions with Ms. Brown, for seven minutes.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

First of all, I'd like to congratulate the ministers on their appointments, and I guess on some days I will want to sympathize with them for the problems they will encounter.

I just want to assure them that we are here to help and to put our heads together at this committee and come up with some solutions to problems that face them—although, as a member of the opposition, that help sometimes may take the form of shoving, pushing, or nudging. I think that's fair game.

As to the social development side of Minister Finley's portfolio, I wonder if she could share with us her definition of social development.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Social development encompasses a broad range of things that fundamentally contribute to the development of our society. These include things like education and housing, basically ensuring that Canadians are provided with the opportunities they need to live well.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Your party, over the years, has talked a great deal about family, and I wonder which definition of family you're operating under.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are many these days. There are many forms of family. We have what is classically referred to as the traditional definition of a family—a married man and woman with 2.1 children, all living in the same arrangement. Today there are a wide range of other forms of family. Unfortunately, we see marriages break up, but we also see families of single parents with one or more children, perhaps with different heritage. We see families that are made up of multiple generations living in the same accommodation. We see quite a broad range. In fact, for many people who are now without blood relatives or marital partners, they form their own families or own family groups; it may be with friends or roommates, but they form their own family function. However, when it comes to legislation, we have to abide by the legal definitions, whatever are appropriate. But we do recognize that families these days take a wide range of forms.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

As far as social development, social cohesion, inclusion, and all those things, it seems to me the foreign credential recognition problem comes to the forefront in a nation of immigrants. I know the budget assigned a certain amount of money to solve that problem, and also you expect to create a new agency. When do you expect that agency to be operational to the point that people can submit their credentials for analysis and evaluation?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

This is a very major undertaking. A lot of efforts have been put forward so far by a number of groups, including previous governments, the Council of Ministers of Education for Canada. It's a huge project. I'm looking at it as a multi-year thing. We're going to tackle it in stages because we want to address the most critical areas first.

In this country we have a lot of skills shortages. We also have a lot of people applying to us from abroad. People want to move here because we're a great country. That's the way they see us. But we want to make sure, for their sake and for ours, that we're matching the skills that are coming in where the jobs are needed. That's best for everybody. It fills the jobs here, it makes us more productive, more competitive, but it also means that immigrants will be able to be productive, will be self-supporting much sooner.

So we're going to be doing up a step-by-step process and working very closely with the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration on this. We're still developing the work plan as we scope out the possibilities because there are a lot of different ways we could go. What we want to do is make sure we do this in stages and that at each stage we're getting something productive, something very useful and practical.

In terms of actual definitions, we're going to be moving forward very soon with our work plan, and then going after the first stage, but we haven't set those timings yet. We believe it's important to do this just as quickly as possible. That's why we've been consulting with some of our international partners to see what they've done.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chairman, we know that on this file there will be many players internationally, federally, provincially. Also, with professional associations, you have a lot people to play with who are going to be guarding their turf. That's why I was wondering if the minister herself, despite the step-by-step process she outlines, has any year in mind when the first group, one sector, say engineers, could actually present credentials and expect to have some evaluation.

I'm not saying the whole gamut of professional credentialled persons, but rather even the first group that might actually be able to get some service out of this new agency. In your own mind, is this a seven-year process, a five-year process, a three-year process? What is your best guess? I won't hold you to it; I promise that. I'm just thinking for my constituents who are trying to bring relatives over, etc.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Finley, just to let you know, there's one minute left for Ms. Brown.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you.

A lot of that work has already started for specific groups because the need was recognized. So there has been an effort to target half a dozen different professions where there have been shortages and where there are a lot of applicants. In the next year we'll be targeting a broader range. That's going to be the focus, and not having completed the work plan yet, it would be irresponsible of me to make any commitments in terms of timing.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

On the school-work transition, which I see as another problem within the social development realm, you have $190 million in the estimates. How many apprenticeships do you expect to create with these incentives? What is the goal?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Just a quick response, as you're out of time.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm sorry, I don't have that number handy at the moment, but I would be happy to provide it to the committee afterwards.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Brown. A good line of questioning.

We'll go to the next individual, Mr. Lessard, seven minutes.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to thank the two ministers for their presentations. We appreciate their presence here this morning and the opportunity to have them answer our questions.

Minister Finlay, I will begin with employment insurance. Your comments are made with the assumption that decisions will be in place by fall, because that is the time of year when votes are reviewed.

You are looking at a number of issues, including the Program for Older Worker Adjustment, or POWA, which provides income support for older people. In recent years, every time programs were announced, they turned out to be short, or temporary. Regions with high percentages of seasonal workers are in the same position.

Some people have very recently been in an extremely difficult situation, e.i. pilot project number 6 was extended at the very last minute. Where are we at with income support studies for older workers? Have you completed them? If so, what direction do you plan to take? This is a very important issue and a very pressing one.

The Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, as it was formerly known, now the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, produced a report after some very comprehensive proceedings. The report comprised 28 recommendations on ways to reform the Employment Insurance Program, in accordance with the mandate given the committee by the House of Commons. Have you read the report? What do you plan to do about the recommendations it contains?

The Bloc Québécois introduced Bill C-269, which comprises a number of those recommendations, with the aim of restoring the Employment Insurance Program. Do you intend to support that bill?

It is very difficult to talk about reforming the EI system without talking about the use the government makes of the EI fund. You will agree with us that, in recent years, the government literally misappropriated some $50 billion from that fund. Benefits to the unemployed were reduced by way of restrictions, so that a surplus could be generated. Because of those restrictions, most unemployed workers find themselves unable to qualify for insurance employment benefits.

I will stop there for now, and I hope I receive very specific answers to each of my questions. Given that you are very familiar with the issues, I think the answers can be quite short.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I actually recorded six questions there. I'll try to deal with them.

There is no question that our government values the contributions of older workers. As we go forward we recognize that within a decade, unless we find more workers, we're going to be even shorter of people than we are now. We will have a decline in our actual workforce unless we get immigrants in, unless we can take advantage of people who we already have. For example, with older workers, we need to keep them in the workforce and productive longer. We need to take advantage of the skills and talents of people with disability as well as those of aboriginals. Otherwise, we're not going to have enough people to fill the jobs in this country.

We believe that any program for older workers has to recognize that it's far better to keep people productively employed than to have them on income support programs exclusively. Whether that means retraining or some other kind of developmental program, that's what we want to explore. So far there have been over 150 different pilot projects across this country dealing with older workers. Nobody has come up with a magic solution yet. That's why I was so pleased when the Prime Minister announced that we will be conducting a feasibility study looking at the issue of older workers and how we can best help them and help keep them productive. That's good not only for the economy, but good for their self-esteem and their own well-being. We'll be going forward with that.

You referred to pilot project number six. That is the one about the five weeks extra for seasonal employees, what we call the seasonal gappers. I was very excited--and actually I was very disappointed at the same time--last week when I was unable to announce personally, but when my parliamentary secretary, who is with us today, was able to announce in the House that we will in fact be extending that program for another 18 months. This we believe will help seasonal workers in the areas of the pilot project. It will also give us a chance to collect another year's worth of data to analyze how effective the program is. We've made some tweaks to it to make it more efficient, more effective. We'll be able to assess the value that those provide. So we're looking forward to the results of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Finley, you have about thirty seconds left to finish up.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I would like to correct one statement that was made, and it was that the EI fund money has been misappropriated. I don't believe it has been. I'm sure this committee has gone into this is some depth, or will in the future. Those funds, the so-called surplus in EI, are actually just on paper. The funds were actually there, they were put into government general funds and they're already been spent to benefit all Canadians. We've realized some savings in the EI to the point where now--and in fact the EI commissioner is sitting beside me, my deputy minister--with the new process where we match premiums to anticipated expenditures, in fact through the savings we've been able to lower the EI premiums three cents for employees and four cents for employers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Finley. Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

Mr. Martin, seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Congratulations to the minister on her appointment. I appreciate you coming today and answering some questions that we might have.

I wanted to start by asking you your views and opinions on, and plans for, a very important sector in our economy that I think is sometimes underappreciated. There have been a number of studies done to indicate the contribution the social economy makes to Canada, to our provinces, to our communities, and to the lives of people. I know that the previous government made a commitment of some dollars to promote the effectiveness of the social economy and to help it grow. Could I ask you for your view and any comment you might have on the importance of the social economy?