Human Resources Committee on Feb. 13th, 2007

[Munir Sheikh]

I think I've answered that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time we have, but if you want to finish up your thought, Mr. Sheikh, go ahead.

[Munir Sheikh]

I've answered that question before. The view of the Sims report was quite clearly that the two work together. If you change one, you put the other out of—

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

That's not what I'm asking you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's all the time. We'll have to pick that up in the next round.

Mr. Lake, seven minutes, please.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you.

Deputy Minister Sheikh, we've heard testimony that bans on replacement workers are widely used throughout the world. Can you tell us if there are any countries that have bans on replacement workers?

[Munir Sheikh]

Well, this is not an easy thing to do. As I'm sure you'd appreciate, collecting data internationally for countries whose legal systems are quite different from ours is not a small thing.

We've tried to make some progress on that front. We have come across information put together by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and the International Labour Organization. We have been able to get hold of some data. Of course we don't have information for all of the approximately 162 countries.

Based on the information we have been able to get, we put countries into three categories: countries that ban the use of replacement workers; countries that allow the use of replacement workers in one form or another, as there are differences in degrees; and countries for which we don't really have any information.

If I can summarize the information that we have, as I said, it's incomplete.

In the first group, countries that ban the use of replacement workers, I can mention countries like Korea, Mexico, Chile, Cambodia, Botswana, Tanzania, and the Republic of Montenegro. Those are the seven countries we have found where the use of replacement workers is banned. As you can understand, they have disallowed that.

The countries where replacement workers are allowed in one form or another would be France, the U.K., Belgium, the U.S., Australia, Germany, Slovenia, Greece, Madagascar, and Namibia. It's not a very long list, but it is all we have been able to find.

I would put the remaining 140-odd countries on the list where we really cannot come to a determination on whether or not replacement workers are allowed. For most of the western countries, the answer is that replacement workers are allowed in one form or another.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you.

I want to pick up on something Ms. Davies was talking about. I thought she made a good point. She said numbers don't tell the whole story and you have to look at the entire labour relations climate. It seems to me that the current labour relations climate post-Sims is quite positive. Can you comment on how the implementation of the recommendations made in the Sims report has changed the environment here in Canada?

[Munir Sheikh]

I think one simple way to determine how the introduction of this new balance in the Sims report has led to the climate between the two parties is based on two sets of observations.

One is that since the new law has come into existence, Parliament has not been asked to pass back-to-work legislation. To me, it is an indication that workers have really been quite reasonable in their demands for wages and other factors. They have shown enough flexibility to come to a conclusion in which Parliament didn't really have to act.

On the other side of the coin, you don't want legislation to affect only one party's behaviour. The other side of the coin, of course, is employers. If you look at the decisions that the Canada Industrial Relations Board have given, my colleagues can correct me, but my understanding is that to date, since the new law has come into existence, the board has not found any complaint where they thought the complaint against the employer was justified.

Both parties have shown a reasonableness to come to a conclusion. and as a result, since the new law, I think the labour relations climate is really quite positive. We haven't seen anything untoward so far.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Further to that, it seems to be working pretty well, and obviously no legislation is absolutely perfect.

In your experience, when you're dealing with making changes to something as complex as the Labour Code, I'd like you to speak to the appropriate way to approach making changes to something like the Labour Code.

[Munir Sheikh]

Our approach is fairly standard. We try to follow it in every circumstance. I can give you the example that I am currently familiar with, and that is the revisions to part III of the Canada Labour Code. Part III of the code has not been revised for 40 years. It's a very substantial piece of legislation.

Three years ago, the previous government set up a commission to study the issue. Professor Arthurs from Osgoode Hall Law School was given the task of recommending to the government what changes should be made. The professor took three years to study part III and presented his report to the minister in October last year.

The minister has come to the view that he needs to discuss these recommendations with these stakeholders, because it is not appropriate in the area of labour legislation to act in a way that doesn't have the consensus of both parties. So the minister has gone on a cross-country tour to hear from employers, unions, and non-unionized workers what their reaction is to the recommendation. The minister has found so far that there are certain areas where all three parties totally disagree with the recommendations, there are some on which they all agree, and of course there are some where there is a difference of views.

It is not clear to us now how much more time it's going to take to have a legislative package if the government decides to go down that path. It takes a fairly substantial amount of time to make sure they can put something together that is very precise, and see whether or not our stakeholders agree with that.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Right--a very careful approach.

I'm going to shift gears for a second. One of the things that concern me is the issue of violence on picket lines. Several people in my riding, some good friends of mine, are members of unions. None of them would condone any kind of violence on the picket lines if they were involved in those kinds of situations.

I want you to elaborate a little on how you take violence into account in the issue of replacement workers.

[Munir Sheikh]

I find that really tough. First of all, we don't collect any statistics on violence for the simple reason that it's really hard to define what violence is. If you don't know what violence is, it's not easy to get data on it. That's one part of it.

If I can accept personal failure on my account, I don't know the answer to a question that I keep asking myself. As a policy analyst, if I have developed a good policy—and you can define that good policy whatever way you want—and somebody tells me that a group of people doesn't like that policy, will engage in violence, and I have to change that policy, I ask myself how would I react to that. I don't know what the answer to the question is, but it really bothers me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Ms. Dhalla, please.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you very much to the witnesses once again for being here today to provide us with some information.

I want to touch upon two particular questions. One has already been raised, but I need further clarification. You mentioned, in regard to essential services during a period of strike, that an application would have to be made to the Canada Industrial Relations Board. How long does that process take at present?

[Munir Sheikh]

The board has been given a variety of issues to deal with. Sometimes it takes the board less time, sometimes more. On substantive issues—not something like an application before the board on the CN strike; whether that was legal or illegal, the board would probably not take too long to come to that decision—the board has come to a decision in about three months, and on fairly complicated issues they've sometimes taken two-and-a-half years.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

What would happen in a process in a strike right now? My concern is essential services, and a number of people in my own constituency have come to see me. Regardless of what they believe about the principle of the legislation itself, let's say this is enacted and it goes through. What would happen if there were essential services that were not being addressed, and application had to be made to the Industrial Relations Board? Would they take three months to determine whether a particular service was critical or not?

[Munir Sheikh]

The answer to that question simply is that I don't know. It really depends on the nature of the issue. I can see them coming to a decision on an essential service fairly quickly, or I can see them taking a long time because it's not quite clear.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

How many people sit on the Industrial Relations Board right now?

[Munir Sheikh]

When the board is full, there are about seven people on the board.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

There are about seven people.

Taking a look at the bill itself, Bill C-257, and going on to proposed paragraph 94(2.2)(a), I've had a number people come forward with a concern in regard to where it states “a person employed as a manager, superintendent or foreman or as a representative of the employer in employer-employee relations”, in that they are the only individuals who would be allowed to work during a particular lockout or strike. Would this actually prevent individuals who are non-unionized employees, who are managers, to go in and provide replacement services?

[Munir Sheikh]

Let me ask my expert to answer that question.

[Elizabeth MacPherson, Director General, Labour Program, Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, Department of Human Resources and Social Development]

I'm not sure I can give an interpretation.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

As an example, the Canadian Pacific Railway has been forwarding some of their issues and concerns, and rightfully so. It was an important issue that both they and other organizations have brought up.

[Munir Sheikh]

My expert tells me that she's not quite clear on what would be or would not be allowed. We really haven't come to those kinds of conclusions on the Bill C-257 provisions.