Human Resources Committee on Feb. 27th, 2007

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I have a closing comment on this. In addition to the financial implications, we must respect provincial areas of jurisdiction, and pensions are provincial areas of jurisdiction. We have the Canada Pension Plan. We have the Quebec Pension Plan. The Canada Pension Plan is administered jointly with the provinces.

This bill is a culmination of a federal-provincial first ministers agreement on amendments to be made to the structure of that pension plan. In other words, if we don't follow the structure of this proposed legislation and we make substantial amendments to it, the provinces will not give their consent to change the plan. So this is not intra vires exclusive federal jurisdiction, and that's why we have to be careful about the sorts of amendments we are proposing.

My understanding is that the proposed amendment in front of us here has not been discussed with the provinces. We have not sought or gained their consent on this issue, and therefore for us to pass it here really is to put the whole legislation at risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chair, we have to be careful. We are adults, and we've been around the block. We should stop talking nonsense to each other.

Managing funds allocated to these programs is a federal responsibility. The federal government has full authority to retain or manage that money. If what my colleague says were true, the federal government would have consulted the provinces, including Quebec, to determine whether it could amend the employment insurance program or deprive seniors of $3.2 billion that belongs to them, but which is still in the federal coffers. I can tell you that, in that case, no one asked Quebec's permission because, if that had been the case, it would not have agreed. Mr. Chair, if it's true in one sense, it's also true in the other.

You mustn't take us for people who don't understand things. The amounts at issue here are very small. People who receive incorrect benefit amounts are exceptional cases. That's even more true of those who commit fraud.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Chong, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to clarify for the record, employment insurance is exclusive federal jurisdiction. It was transferred to the federal government decades ago. Pensions are not, and that's the difference in this case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, if there is no more discussion, the question is on Bloc amendment 1.

(Amendment negatived)

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll now move to Bloc amendment number 2.

Mr. Lessard, would you like to read your amendment, sir?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Yes, I move that Bill C-26, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing line 41 on page 2 with the following:

recoverable within six years in the Federal Court or

Mr. Chair, I believe we've had the debate, since this is a motion pursuant to the previous motion. Mr. Chair, I'm going to request a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. If there's no more discussion, then, I will ask....

Do we want a recorded vote? Okay. We'll have a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move now to Bloc motion number 3.

Mr. Lessard, would you like to read the amendment in?

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Mr. Chair, again for the purpose of concordance, I'm going to request a vote on this as well. I move that Bill C-36, in Clause 4, be amended by replacing line 5 on page 3 with the following:

to Her Majesty and is recoverable within six years in

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay. All those in favour of Bloc amendment 3, please signify.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I request a recorded vote, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, we'll have a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])

(Clauses 4 to 10 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 11)

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Lessard has amendment BQ-4 on page 4.

Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I move that Bill C-36, in Clause 11, be amended by deleting lines 8 to 10 on page 8.

This concerns paragraph 104.01(3)(d) in the bill, which reads as follows:

(d) on the conditions that may be prescribed, any other individual authorized in writing by the individual.

So I'm moving that these lines simply be deleted.

With your permission, Mr. Chair, I could argue in favour of this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Go ahead, Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Where it refers to representative, you see further on that it is a representative duly authorized in predetermined conditions, whereas here it states: “on the conditions that may be prescribed, any other individual authorized in writing by the individual.”

We know that seniors may experience periods of confusion. Consequently, we think the expression “any other individual” opens the door to authorizations that could be highly inappropriate and that would not properly serve a senior's interests. So that, Mr. Chair, is why we are moving that these three lines be deleted.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard.

I have Ms. Yelich.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I share some of the concerns Mr. Lessard expressed; however, we've actually had this request from many seniors, including people I know personally, who thought this was really good. I would therefore like to see the clause stand as it is, if it's possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Yelich.

Are there any other comments?

I will call the question, then, on amendment BQ-4. All in favour—

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I request a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

All right, we'll have a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

(Clauses 11 to 15 inclusive agreed to)

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We have a new clause 15.1, which will be on page 5.

Mr. Lessard, would you like to read your amendment?

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

It's amendment 5 on page 12.