Human Resources Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Lewis, I read your 18 conclusions. I find some of them very interesting, particularly those concerning the mentoring programs and behavioural models. In my view, this is fundamentally important. The same is true of housing and providing educational material.

However, I was surprised when you said: “That government develops and encourages initiatives to implement an Aboriginal studies curriculum.”

We're talking about the First Nations in the plural. There are a number of nations and a number of cultures, and so a number of ways to view life.

Is this a printing error, or do you really want only one educational program to be established for Canada's First Nations?

[Sherry Lewis]

Our recommendation centres around ensuring that young people hear a positive message about their culture and their history, and that the average Canadian has a better understanding of our collective history.

We see things like the land dispute in Caledonia. On the surface things appeared to be in harmony and to be going well, but the minute something occurred and we began to look at our inherent rights and at what came first, the chicken or the egg, then the surface began to bubble with racism. All of us have probably seen the various comments and things, so it's just below the surface.

Many Canadians believe that no racism exists in this country, yet we see it on the news almost every night. For us that's a clear example that if you don't understand how the treaties came to be—For example, a young person said this: my professor asked me about who has treaty rights here, and only the Indians put up their hands—but everybody has treaty rights, and the treaties are about sharing those rights. If you don't understand how those came to be, then some of the perspectives you see in the media are from an uneducated perspective. There's lots that could be done to share our mutual or collective history on how we came to share, and to live in harmony in, this part of the world.

So we think that's an important message out there, that we are being portrayed as a burden on this country, instead of our being the welcoming open hand when the lost people found their way here. That's a very different message.

When my children were going to school, they would come and say, it's aboriginal day and they want us to bring our artifacts in. So I told my husband he was going in, because he's the oldest thing I have in the house.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Sherry Lewis]

So the perspectives out there are interesting, that people were just waiting happily to see the artifacts from a home that's no different from the one next door. We live in the same homes, but we just have a different world view. So we feel it's critical to learn and understand from each other if we're going to live in harmony—even when we have different perspectives.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

I imagine the ideal would be for the 18 recommendations as a whole to be implemented. However, if you were to select three, four or five more important ones, which ones would you choose?

[Sherry Lewis]

Well, certainly increasing the funding is a priority. As our colleagues have said here, NWAC does have an AHRDA agreement, but it's a mere $2 million. With that small amount of money, we contribute a large percentage to the 50% of women who have gained access. So as I say, when we ask them why we can't have access to the larger labour market, it's because we're there to enhance what the others do. When women have to be a primary consideration, we can no longer be an enhancement if we want to significantly change their life status in this country. So some priority funding would be nice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move now to Madame Savoie, for five minutes, please.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to touch on the issue of student financial assistance, because I think one of the most troubling parts of my portfolio has been meeting with a number of students who are facing crushing debt burdens. We've seen recent further support for RESPs, raising the ceiling and so on, which seems to benefit wealthier families while doing nothing to improve access. What we've been hearing is the need to ensure access, independent of the size of one's pocketbook.

I'm wondering if there are any comments from any of you about what could be done.

You've referred to some of those things in your recommendations, Mr. Brown, including grants for the first two years. What could be the federal government's role in that piece of it?

[Gerald Brown]

I think some of the issues before you in our brief speak to some of the key areas. The challenge we have with the student loan system that exists now in both Canada and Quebec is that it's a system designed for the sixties, but is now operative in the 21st century. So we tinker and tinker to the point where it becomes skewed. So I think it's important that we find a way to sit down—and this might in fact be an integral part of the pan-Canadian workforce strategy we talked about earlier—and find ways to look at that model with certain guiding principles, such as universality, portability, simplicity and rationality.

But the thing that concerns us the most, of course, is the student debt that's being accumulated and the impact it is going to have on the next generation. We know that students are putting off getting married—although that's à la mode these days anyway—and putting off starting their families and buying their first homes. All of this is impacting very significantly.

Interestingly enough, when you do the studies across the country, you notice that in Quebec, for instance, where the CÉGEP system is tuition fee, the problems are exactly the same, because of all of the inherent costs around post-secondary education. So you can just imagine that in areas of special needs and other areas this standing committee is looking at, the challenge is even much more demanding. That's why for us the earlier question by the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation is a very urgent one.

The more we can move to grants and a system of grants, the more likely we're going to be able to reduce some of that burden.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Indeed. We've had governments that are very keen on paying the debt, and I certainly support that, but with no concerns about letting students get in debt to the tune, I think, now in Canada of something like $20 billion, which is really horrifying.

I'd like to move on to the question of Indian and Northern Affairs and the interface with HRSDC. As I understand from speaking to aboriginal people, either on-reserve or off-reserve, there are many different reporting mechanisms and different agreements, with not much coordination between the two departments, which complicates things. For example, the money that's allocated from K to 12 comes from INAC and it doesn't allow for the funds to be applied to apprenticeship training. Yet we've heard today that there's a growth rate among your young people of something like 22% and there's a cap of 2% on the increase in funding.

So there are lots of questions there, about the cap, the lack of coordination, the difficulty with all the reporting mechanisms. Would you like to address any of those?

[John Kozij]

Certainly. I think all programs have a certain amount of reporting. I guess the question is whether the level of reporting and administrative work is such that it's a burden or normal in a certain accountability framework.

I think we're quite proud at HRSDC to have decided in 1999 to bundle a number of programs under one contribution agreement in the form of the AHRDA, the aboriginal human resources development agreements. When I say “bundle”, that means that there's a youth program in there, there's a child care program in there, there's a persons with disabilities program in there, there's a labour market program in there, there's a capacity program in there, and there's an urban program in there, all in one contribution agreement—

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I don't want to interrupt you, but what is the work you've done to coordinate the programs with INAC?

[John Kozij]

Let's say if we take a lifelong learning spectrum, INAC is responsible for primary and secondary education. We come in in the technical skills area, and then they come back in again in post-secondary education support.

If you'd like to talk to them about issues of primary and secondary education as well as about post-secondary education support, I'm sure they'd be quite happy to come here.

We play that role in the middle between high school and post-secondary education, and helping students make the transition to work into skills.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you. That's all the time we have.

We're going to move now to our last person of this round. Ms. Yelich, five minutes, please.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you. I will be sharing my time with my other colleagues here.

I actually have questions for every one of you, but I won't have time. I do want to go to Sherry, only because a couple of years ago I attended a conference here in Ottawa that had the women aboriginal entrepreneurs. It was really impressive. That function showed that if you empower aboriginal women, the sky seemed to be the limit.

I am wondering if you'd like to comment on whether one of the steps should be the matrimonial real property that we're looking at and trying to get through as legislation in the House of Commons. Would you agree that's a good first step to some of the issues that you have?

[Sherry Lewis]

As I've tried to explain in my presentation, there are broader determinants to employment success. You can't just rely on education or skills development alone to have the impact for aboriginal women. It is housing—she doesn't have any property protection on-reserve, so she is frequently having to start at a lower spot—no child care, and there are lots of other things. We want to make sure that those broader determinants—and for sure matrimonial real property on-reserve is one of the large ones. This has been going on for well over 30 years. Women have had to flee with absolutely nothing but the clothes on their backs.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

I remind you that $10 million went into the Status of Women, particularly for combating violence against women and girls.

I also agree with you that there aren't enough data out there. I think that's a complaint for aboriginal and non-aboriginal statistics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Chong, please.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a quick question for John Kozij.

It's about your presentation. On page 4 of your presentation, on aboriginal labour market development, it states: “...results indicate that known predictors of employment such as age, gender, educational attainment, family status, mobility and place of residence do not fully explain the employment gap.”

I'm wondering if you could provide this committee with an educated guess as to what would explain the remainder of that gap. In other words, if the gap in employment is not fully explained by these normal predictors, what could explain the remainder of the gap?

[John Kozij]

I could speculate a bit, but I'd be even happier to share with you a study that we did that looked at some determinants of employment and that made that piece of analysis in terms of not being able to fully explain the employment gap.

What the authors said is they think it has something to do with residual issues around aboriginal awareness of employers and whether or not race is playing a factor with respect to people securing employment. That's why it is more important than ever for us to work more with employers to raise issues of aboriginal awareness and to make those worksites friendlier and more open to aboriginal people.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Actually, I just want to make a comment quickly about something Ms. Lewis spoke about. She was talking a bit about some of the challenges that some aboriginal women face once they have employment. I hear what you're saying. I can't imagine really what it would be like to be in that situation.

One of the great things about the tight labour market right now in northern Alberta, where my riding is, is that there is much more flexibility offered to workers right now in special circumstances because it is such a tight labour market.

I know from my own experience as a manager, and that of my colleagues at the Oilers in my previous life, before I was elected, that when we were flexible with our staff and took into account some of those unique circumstances that they had, they were happier and more productive in the long term too, and it allowed us to keep around valuable employees who had a lot to offer the organization. It sometimes just took a bit of a special accommodation, especially early on, to get to understand some of the circumstances.

That is just a comment of appreciation for what you had to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay, we are going to have two more quick rounds.

Mr. Merasty, you have three minutes, and then three minutes will go back to the Conservatives, and then we'll finish up.

[Gary Merasty, Liberal, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, with the aboriginal human resource development agreements, I was around when the first One Agreement models were—away back when. Those are great. It would be nice to see huge investments in this area and build on those successes.

I want to follow up on Ms. Dhalla's question with the ASEP moneys, because $5 million, $30 million, $7 million, $7 million, $7 million—that does not add up to $105 million. Once we get around to that, maybe you can explain that. Maybe I misunderstood the breakdown.

With respect to the gender reports, perhaps we can get those. In what timeframe would we be able to secure them?

The ACCC is a great organization that we partnered with. I used to be chairman of SIIT and we hosted the big—I think we met there, actually.

With respect to NWAC, in my former position it was the women in our communities who carried the economy. They outnumbered the men in our area five to one in post-secondary training and employment. The need for child care, for transportation, and for other supports is absolutely critical and it must happen, so I applaud you.

I want to ask Mr. Dinsdale about friendship centres and their huge role in employability, which is what we are studying here. You've become, as friendship centres, the Jack and Jane of all trades in the urban areas. You are doing a bit of child care upgrading, employment readiness, resumé-making, employment training. You have an infrastructure where you can point to successes.

What do you think you would need in the next little while to actually build on those successes?

[Peter Dinsdale]

One thing we don't have is a formal relationship in employment training in AHRDS at all. We have no formalized relationship whatsoever. We think that the delivery infrastructure you talked about and the kinds of programs that are available in those community centres should play a vital role.

Frankly, you get access to 116 communities very consistently, very effectively, and very professionally. So what we would need is a willing partner, frankly, to have significant employment training prospects in urban areas for urban aboriginal people.