Human Resources Committee on April 24th, 2007

[Susan Elson]

We represent 30 partner organizations. We're currently looking at amalgamating under one umbrella to have one child care organization within the province. So of those 30 organizations, we represent approximately 250 day care centres and about 70 family day-home agencies.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

With that type of network, I'm sure many of your members know, or perhaps were excited to hear in the last election, when the Conservatives were elected, that the Conservatives promised to create 125,000 child care spaces, in addition to the universal child care benefit. I believe it was supposed to be 25,000 spaces to be created over a five-year period.

Have you in Alberta, since you have so many Conservative members elected in your province, seen the creation of a single space in the last 15 months, versus any other province in the country?

[Susan Elson]

We have not seen the creation of a single space in Alberta.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

We thought they just didn't like us in Ontario. I wasn't sure what was happening out in Alberta.

In terms of the actual spaces that would have been created under the previous Liberal agreement on early learning and child care, how many new spaces would there have been in Alberta for children wanting to go to a space, consistent with the principles of the quad?

[Susan Elson]

I have no idea. I don't have an answer to that question.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Have your members come forward in terms of the impact they have felt from the cancellation of the early learning and child care agreement?

[Susan Elson]

As I stated in my report, we're very fortunate in Alberta to have the support of our provincial government. With Alberta Children's Services, we have been continuing to work on our accreditation system and on securing quality within the existing programs. We have certainly talked to Alberta Children's Services and to our other government representatives, who are interested in what that $90 million would have meant to us. Whether or not that could have created any spaces, it would certainly help the recruitment and retention issue even further. Even though we do have salary enhancements currently in place, that additional $90 million could have meant a great deal to us.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

In regard to the recent reallocation of $250 million, going from businesses to the provinces for the creation of spaces, are you aware of whether the Alberta government will have any accountability imposed by its federal counterpart to ensure the creation of spaces?

[Susan Elson]

I do not, no.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

So you still don't know whether there will be a single space created with that $250 million being handed over to the provinces?

[Susan Elson]

Correct.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Dhalla.

I will now move to Mr. Lessard. Five minutes or less would be great.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd also like to thank our witnesses for joining us this afternoon to present their views on Bill C-303.

Speaking more directly to Mr. Lévesque, Ms. Bélanger and Ms. Elson, I'd like to say that despite your status within a so-called bipolar system, I appreciate the fact that you have overcome this situation and emphasized the positive side of this for society. You have put your personal interests aside. I appreciate that very much, particularly as your experience with the existing system is well recognized today. That doesn't take away from the fact that you have rights and interests to defend.

As parliamentarians, we also must gather information from all interested parties. Recently, on April 20 in fact, we heard from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business which voiced an entirely different opinion. Yet, it also professes to speak on your behalf. Its findings were at the opposite end of the spectrum. It noted the following:

To ensure that new daycare spaces can always be created on the basis of demand, we urge you and your committee to reject this bill and ask that all jurisdictions work together to ensure [...]

Am I to understand then that the federation is not speaking for you and that you distance yourself from this position?

[Sylvain Lévesque]

Most certainly. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business represents maybe 80 or 90 daycares. Our association, on the other hand, represents 400 private childcare centres in Quebec out of a total of 543, if memory serves me well. We're not rejecting this bill. The private sector has contributed to the system that is now in place in Quebec. Without its help, we wouldn't have 200,000 spaces today.

I wanted to respond to the woman who earlier had a question for the experts who have done quality studies in Quebec. In 2003, I sat on the committee involved in a survey, Grandir en qualité, on the quality of educational childcare. When experts examined the quality of daycare services in Quebec at the time, by law, one of every three childcare workers had to be a certified early childhood educator, while in the case of public daycares, the ratio was two certified early childhood educators for every three childcare workers. When a government enacts regulations that go against the best interests of children, obviously quality can vary from one system to the next.

The association would like the rule in place in Quebec, that is two certified early childhood educators for every three childcare workers, to be the industry standard. Since the rule was first introduced in Quebec, the quality of services has improved. If the private sector is given an opportunity to prove itself, to develop and to really work together with the government, anything is possible. If private daycares are required to meet the same quality and development standards, then the development of the system is controlled. In truth, Quebec has been able to control the growth of daycares through the creation of regional committees. All stakeholders, including unions, have had a say in where investments would be made and new spaces created.

Therefore, it's a myth to say that the private sector cannot be a part of the system and that it provides services of a lesser quality. Everything depends on system requirements and on the regulations with which service providers must comply.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

From what you've said in the past, am I correct in saying that you have no objections, provided that the State pays for the services? The State can gradually assume a bigger role, but in the meantime, the sector steps in to fill unused space. In other words, you don't want to remain on the sidelines. You want to be a player.

[Sylvain Lévesque]

We follow the rules of the game. We have managed to change the philosophy of the private sector in Quebec since 1997. We agreed to the $5 a day policy—it's now $7 a day—and we agreed to follow the rules of the game, since we do receive state subsidies. That being said, we still operate on a for-profit basis, albeit according to strict accountability rules, and we must comply with the same laws and rules as public daycares.

You tell me, where is the problem? A parent who shows up at my daycare doesn't' ask if mine is a for-profit entity. He asks if my daycare provides quality services and programs. He could care less if I operate a conventional daycare or an early childhood centre. All he's concerned about is getting quality services for his child. If government standards recognize quality, then where is the problem in giving everyone an opportunity? Canada is an inclusive society, after all.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lessard.

I'm sorry, I thought we could do a couple more. We are going to have to cut it at that.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. We have votes. We're not in the precinct. We've got to move across.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Point of order.

I just wanted to correct some of my math because I was racing so fast before. I want to correct that 1.9 million kids times $8,000 is $15.2 billion per year. I just wanted to correct that for the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

I thank all the witnesses for being here.

Just before the committee goes, I gather that we have consent for one day of hearings on Bill C-284. Is that okay? Thank you very much.

With that, the meeting is adjourned.