Evidence of meeting #71 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was parents.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dave Quist  Executive Director, Institute of Marriage and Family Canada
Beverley Smith  As an Individual
Yvonne Coupal  Coordinator, Citizens in Favour of Equal Government Childcare Subsidies for All Children
Sara Landriault  President, National Family Childcare Association
Helen Ward  President, Kids First Parent Association of Canada

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Institute of Marriage and Family Canada

Dave Quist

The universality is actually, I think, one of the key parts of the equation that you're trying to debate right now.

We would certainly agree that there's a need for child care. However, under this bill, the definition of universality seems to fit the nine-to-five type of role. As we know, that is not reality. There are people who are doing double shifts, who are working evening or night shifts and things like that, both men and women, whether they be single-parent families or whether they be both working outside of the household and so on. I don't see under this bill how that question is fully addressed and allows true universality.

On your second question regarding the cutting of funds, one of the things that come to mind with that is whether the federal government is in the business of child care and whether it is a federal or a provincial jurisdiction. I know that question has actually been up here within some of your debate. I don't have the answer to that question, but I think that is part of the answer to the issue you're discussing.

On the issue of money being transferred to the provinces, our preliminary research at this time indicates that if we go back the last number of years under different governments, there has been a great deal of money transferred from federal to provincial governments under the CHST and now the CST. I think accountability is one of the factors that needs to be drawn into there--is the money going where it was intended to go? That is really for you as government and opposition parties to finalize and debate that part of it, I believe.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We're almost out of time.

4:30 p.m.

Coordinator, Citizens in Favour of Equal Government Childcare Subsidies for All Children

Yvonne Coupal

On the question of universality, if only eight-to-fivers or nine-to-fivers take that bracket, in Quebec it means first come, first served. The parent who has one income, who has no alternative but to work, has to stay and wait on a waiting list, while the parents who may have one income with two parents can lopsidedly bring their child and drop them off. There are absolutely no selection criteria, because that would be discriminatory, and universality would no longer be the famous selling point.

So I have to admit that universality, even within the timeframe of a working nine-to-fiver, is also lopsided within the Quebec system. Please, don't take it out of context. Every parent who is trying to get a space based on universality is basically clawing at the same door. Unless there's some type of specification as to who gets a qualification, it won't matter whether it's 24-hour service; there are not enough people in the world to take care of our children.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Patrick Brown Conservative Barrie, ON

I just wanted to give one quick example before my time is up. I have a constituent in my riding, Thomas LaBoss, who works a night shift. He has five kids. Three of them are under the age of six. I know how much this means to his family. He frequently shares with his wife the duties of staying at home.

What are you going to say to a family like that, which is barely making it—we're going to take that funding away? If that happened under this bill or happened under Mr. Dion's plan, it would be devastating for families like that.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Mr. Savage, you have five minutes, as we move into our second round.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming and giving us their presentations.

It is always a bit of a treat to follow Mr. Brown. It's a little bit like an afternoon at the improv, as he goes through some of his frightening tactics. I think he's been sitting too close to John Baird in the House of Commons.

To react to the comment he made the other day about the cut of $25 billion in the transfers, unless they're planning to bring back Mr. Mulroney and build up a $42 billion annual deficit, I don't see this as being imminent. I don't think even the Conservative government, under a minority Parliament, can be in power long enough to rack that up, but I hope you keep your eye on this and make sure it doesn't happen.

I'd like to ask a question about choice, because I think we all agree choice is the issue. I believe the plan the Liberal Party introduced provided choice. I believe this plan will provide more choice. You very clearly believe the opposite.

In my own province of Nova Scotia, among the people most excited about the Liberal plan that was introduced and signed in 2005 were parents of special needs kids and parents of francophone families, because they can't get child care spaces in Nova Scotia. As part of the deal that was signed with the Province of Nova Scotia, those spaces would have been created. That, to me, is choice that they otherwise don't have.

I wonder whether you have a view on that, anybody who wants to answer.

4:35 p.m.

Coordinator, Citizens in Favour of Equal Government Childcare Subsidies for All Children

Yvonne Coupal

Can I answer that?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We will go with Ms. Coupal.

4:35 p.m.

Coordinator, Citizens in Favour of Equal Government Childcare Subsidies for All Children

Yvonne Coupal

The special care needs children in Quebec did have special services prior to the imposition of this day care—not child care—program. You call it “third party” child care. They were all of a sudden lumped in with an existing system that was there to serve all children. What ended up happening is that our special needs children were just about pushed to the side, because they were no longer segregated. The universality program basically wiped out the ability to award them special attention and special moneys. There is a great falling back, a great hole in Quebec's day care system in meeting the needs of special children.

So one should be very cautious about assuming that just because a space will be open it will benefit a special need. That is not the case, and has not been, in Quebec. If anything, the opposite has proven true.

4:35 p.m.

As an Individual

Beverley Smith

Parents I've contacted who have special needs children are the ones pretty likely to stay home with the child. For example, there are people who have one parent at home and can't get any funding until they put the child into any institutional care for even a few hours a day, and that's when the funding comes.

They are actually sacrificing an entire income, and special needs parents should be funded for at-home care. It's like the case with those of you who believe in funding at-home care for hospital care. It's inconsistent to say we shouldn't give money to parents of special needs kids at home.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Savage.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I'm not a parent of special needs children. We have at least one member of the committee who would be able to speak to that much more effectively than I. But the parents I've talked to in my community have said that as part of the deal with the Province of Nova Scotia, it would have dramatically improved their opportunity to provide care for their children. I think that's very important.

As well, in the francophone community we have the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse, who have a hard time. In fact, I believe the number of francophone children in Nova Scotia who, when they reach their French school, are not competent in their own language is over 60%. That's a shame, and if we believe we are a bilingual country and believe in bilingualism, we should provide those services. Under the previous plan, and I hope potentially under Bill C-303, we'd be better off.

Did somebody want to answer that?

4:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Beverley Smith

I have one more thing.

4:40 p.m.

President, Kids First Parent Association of Canada

Helen Ward

And then could I answer briefly?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay, Ms. Smith, and then Ms. Ward, very quickly.

4:40 p.m.

As an Individual

Beverley Smith

Under the Convention on the Rights of the Child, parents have a right to raise their children in the language of their preference. The language of francophone children is dying because maybe they aren't spending enough time in their home environment, where the francophone language is used.

I mean, if we want to value our people of other languages, putting them into one style of day care is certainly not going to do that.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Ms. Ward.

4:40 p.m.

President, Kids First Parent Association of Canada

Helen Ward

The issue is not simply about choice, Mr. Savage, it's about choice with equality. We want equality for all the choices we make.

The vice-president of Kids First has a severely mentally handicapped son. She put him in licensed preschool briefly. He's very autistic, and he was very unhappy there. She took him out. Of course, she then got zero funding over the 20 years that she has provided basically home care for her son.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Just to close off on that, francophone parents can't all stay at home. This goes back to the very issue of choice. They would probably prefer to have their children at home, but they have to work. And when they have to work, there are no spaces available in large parts of Nova Scotia--and, I suspect, in large parts of Canada.

The amount of $100 a month is immaterial. It's irrelevant. It makes no difference to them. I would argue, although I know you wouldn't agree, that this is why we need some kind of framework that provides more choice for those families who have unique circumstances.

But thank you for--

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Just a quick comment, Ms. Ward.

4:40 p.m.

President, Kids First Parent Association of Canada

Helen Ward

We would like to see the amount drastically increased. The Liberal plan, $5 billion over five years, is for $1 billion a year. There are two million children aged zero to five. That's $500 per child per year.

The basis of that plan is that the vast majority look after their own kids and handle their own costs, but we subsidize the high cost of day care for the few who use it. It's grossly unfair.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Ward, and thank you, Mr. Savage.

Madame Barbot, five minutes, please.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Some days it is difficult to sit here and hear what we hear about Quebec child care. I want to say very firmly that, in Quebec, we have a universal service that meets the needs of the majority of Quebec parents, and of which we are very proud. What is more, we want to keep it as it is.

You should know that this service was not built in a day. My oldest child is 35 now, and even before he had come into the world, we were already fighting to get child care. A number of battles had to be fought, men and women together, for us to get what we have today. The battle went on for a long time; a large number of people were involved and it arose from a very specific need: men and women with children who wanted to work and who wanted a service that was well set up, where children could receive an education, and where they were safe. It was a social choice.

A social choice means that the majority of people in a given place decided what was good for their children. If nine other provinces and the territories decide that they do not want child care service, more power to them. But in Quebec, we chose what we thought was good for us. And never, ever, will I accept your coming here and telling us that we have a discriminatory system. If you want to talk about discrimination, I can give you many more relevant examples than children.

By and large, we are educated and informed people. We love children, and so there is no way we would put them in a system that you are daring to call mediocre. When you say that, you insult everyone in Quebec. Now, that is nothing new, neither here nor elsewhere in Canada. But at least in the interest of being fair and equitable, you should be able to recognize what most people and most credible institutions in Canada and around the world record recognize, that in Quebec, we have just about the best system of child care there is. The system is so well regarded that some MPs are holding it up as a model and submitting it as such to the House.

Of course, in any model, adjustments have to be made here and there. It is a universal system -- I am going to keep calling it universal --, but that does not mean that it works for 50% of the children, as someone here said; it means that it is accessible to everyone.

Of course there are problems with spaces. We are working on it. We would like to get to the point where all children have access. However, you will surely agree that a system like that is not put into place overnight. So it is universal in the sense that everyone has access and in the sense that the first come is the first served, precisely to prevent discrimination. People have access whether they are on welfare or whether they are lawyers or teachers. That is what universality is for us.

So if you want to look it up in a dictionary, go ahead. But coming up with your own definition to denigrate the system is not going to fly.

All I want to say here in that we have our system, we put it into place and it works for us. If you want to use it as a model, go ahead. If you do not want to use it as a model, do what you like. But we want to keep it, and we are going to do everything we can to keep it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Is there any time left? I would like to add something.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Yes, there is. You would like that? You have a minute and 15 seconds, Mr. Lessard.