I hear you when you say that it's not about money. However, I would suggest to you that those who are perhaps closest to this issue and trying to help those who are trying to make ends meet will tell you that if people have enough to house themselves, if people have enough to feed themselves, if people have enough to buy clothes so that they can be warm and look decent out in the community and participate in the workplace, they will then take care of a whole lot of their other needs.
So for them it does boil down to having enough money, having enough income. I know that in Ontario, when I was a provincial member of parliament, we cut welfare by 21.6%, and it wasn't long afterwards that we began to see huge numbers of people lying and sleeping on the streets of Toronto. We cut the national housing program that was out there at that time as well.
One of your colleagues in Newfoundland, Ms. Michael, will tell you that income is central and essential to alleviating poverty. The National Council of Welfare suggests the Canada social transfer can be used to see provinces meeting policy and program needs, and the Canadian Council on Social Development is suggesting that transfer actually needs to be developed in a way that sees it split, so there is a post-secondary education transfer and a social programs transfer, going forward.
Can I have your comments on some of that?