Evidence of meeting #11 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was income.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
It's just the noise in the room.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
The question I had was essentially this. You set a target as to where you'd like to be by 2013. With the state of the economy and the downturn in the economy, what effect or impact is it having on your target, and how well are you doing generally with respect to meeting the target?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
We don't know, because the target for 2013 is an abstract sort of target: to be among the best. It's not a target with a specific number. Also, when the target was set, there was no agreed-upon indicator. Canada doesn't have an official measure of poverty, and of course Quebec doesn't either. We are in the process of agreeing on indicators. In the coming weeks the government should come up with a document on indicators of poverty, but there's no scale that would allow us to say exactly where we are.
The action plan requires the government every year to present an account of where we are. What we know is that things have been improving, up to 2004 and perhaps 2006. Of course, data on poverty always lags, and the most recent data we have is for 2006. Maybe by the time we know what the recession will do, we will be out of the recession. I hope it won't be too long. Certainly it will make it difficult, because it will create unemployment. It will make it difficult also because we know for sure that the Quebec government has fewer resources, lower revenues, and therefore less capacity to sustain existing programs, let alone start new ones or redistribute. It will be difficult, but of course because the target is comparative in a way—
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
You've left yourself a lot of wiggle room as to where you want to get to. If you were going to be objective, you really would need to set goalposts or markers and pick a tracking system of some kind to compare, year to year, to see how you're doing. Would you agree with that assessment?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Yes. Normally, I would say, from what I've read about what goes on in Europe, politicians do not like to have targets too specific.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
That's fair enough.
The other point I noticed in your strategy was to make employment the preferred solution whenever possible. I guess that ties in to your unemployment issue with the economy. To make work pay is another strategy. Not everybody would agree that this is where it should be and that it shouldn't be wider than that, but dealing with that narrow point in your plan or program, can you tell me what steps you've taken specifically and how you might be doing with respect to older workers, recent immigrants or newcomers, visible minorities, and persons with disabilities? Are you taking specific steps in those areas with respect to employment? If you are, what are those steps and how are you doing in each of those areas?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
The first steps that were taken, in terms of making work pay, were along the lines of employment benefits for people who work with low pay. More recently, the Quebec government presented an employment pact, in agreement with unions and employers. Of course, this was designed just before rumours of a recession started, but the aim of the strategy was, in collaboration with unions and employers, to develop training integration measures for the people who are either more distanced from the labour market or have specific obstacles. It's for almost all of the categories you mentioned: older people without jobs, recent immigrants, people with handicaps or obstacles of one kind or another.
It's not a single bullet. It's money that the Quebec government puts into training and into subsidies for employment--for example, to an employer who employs people who are out of the labour market in some way or another. In the last budget, just presented, there was more money allocated to these programs. Even in hard times, this is a priority for the government.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
What are we talking about in dollars? Can you give me a percentage of wages?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
No, I cannot.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I could find out from my papers, but that would not be up to date.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
We're now going to move into the second round, which will be five minutes of questions and answers. We're going to start with Ms. Minna.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for coming, Mr. Noël.
I just wanted to make a comment.
We were told, when I was on a different committee, that the early education and child care program alone had assisted women in Quebec. As a result, there are more women working than before and more children being born. I'm wondering if you could just comment on that. I think it was a combination, as I was told. I just want you to expand on that with respect to both early education and child care and the Quebec parental leave program, which is richer than the general one. I wonder if you could verify that and explain how that's correlated and how that's helped with respect to poverty issues.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I don't think there have been econometric studies on people having more children. But the integration of women into the labour market has been demonstrated in econometric studies that have controlled for all kinds of other variables. The combination of available day care--which is not available enough, but still, once you get it, it's affordable—affordable day care, plus the supplements, the family allowances and supplements for people who work for low pay, make it more feasible for someone to hold a job. It has increased the participation of women in the labour market. That's been established empirically.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Quebec has legislation with respect to a poverty strategy. Do you think that if it had not been legislated it would have been as successful as it has been? Is legislation fundamental to the process?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
That's a very good question, because you could argue it both ways. Some of the measures we talked about were introduced before this legislation. We were just talking about the day care offer and family allowances. That being said, the major transformation of the transfer system came with the first action plan, in 2004, and it is my conviction that without the law.... When the Jean Charest government was elected in 2003, they were not too keen on it.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I think there were various factors, but the law required that they produce an action plan, so they had to say something. Eventually, they also realized that there was broad support in public opinion. So the law prompted governments to act, and it also consolidated in public opinion the idea that you can do something. So yes, it made a difference.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I have just one more point. With one of my students, I looked at the various national election plans in 15 countries in Europe. There were all kinds of ways social programs in these different countries were organized. But on certain matters, there was a clear difference between the countries that made a legislative commitment and those that did not, and you see the result in the policies that have been adopted, in the way work is supplemented or not, and what has happened. So these laws make a difference.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
You mentioned earlier in your comments that of course this was family-centred, which I understand. But for unattached individuals, people who don't have children, is work being done at this point to address them, adults who are poor but don't happen to have children or a family? Is there any work being done in Quebec at this particular time?
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Certainly the government is aware. If you look at the last bilan of the action plan, it starts with the recognition that single persons have been sort of left behind. There is a will to do better, but I think it will be harder. It's a large group of people. It's a question of incentives and so on. But it is a next step, I would say.
Liberal
Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
I see.
My last question has to do with national involvement. We're looking at establishing, hopefully, a national poverty strategy. I would ask, first, if you advise that we legislate it in some way; and secondly, of course, before legislation, there would have to be, I presume, some extensive consultation with provinces in areas of overlap or jurisdiction. I'm wondering what advice you would give us on that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Go ahead and answer the question, but make it a quick response. We're over time.
Professor, Department of Political Science, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Okay.
First, I would not call it a national policy. I would call it a Canadian or a federal policy. And I would try to make sure not to place all the provinces on the same track or within the same norms, because we don't know for sure what will work best.
Yes, I would legislate, but I would focus first on areas of federal jurisdiction. There are plenty to play with.
Second, in terms of a role for the federal government, I would focus on measures that facilitate the exchange of information, the development of knowledge about the indicators of poverty, knowledge about policies, exchanges between provinces on best practices, and so on and so forth.