Evidence of meeting #16 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Courtneidge  Outreach and Policy, Canada Without Poverty
Kelly Law  Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty
Dennis Howlett  Coordinator, Make Poverty History
Armine Yalnizyan  Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

We're going to start the meeting.

Do you have the letter that was sent to us by the committee assistant addressed to the Honourable Gordon O'Connor, in his capacity as Chief Government Whip, and signed by Mr. Dean Allison, chair of this committee? If you haven't received it, let us know.

I would like to inform you that I have received two letters in my capacity as vice-chair of this committee.

The first letter is from Ian Mass, executive director of Pacific Community Resources, dealing with youth employment skills-linked programming, but the letter was received in English only. I will have it translated into French, and then I'll ask the chair to have it circulated among the members.

It's the same thing for the second letter, which is dated April 22. I don't know whether you got a copy of it, but I got a copy signed by Anne Burns, executive director of the National Association of Career Colleges, also only in English. I will have that letter translated and circulated among members.

Are there any questions about that?

Tony.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Yes, a couple of things.

I got the letter to Mr. O'Connor, and I appreciate it being sent. Had I written it, it would have been a little harder. Nevertheless, I was wondering if there's any further news, and maybe a final listing of the places to which we're going, and the time, so we can all start planning.

I wonder if there's any news back from the whip or from the chair as to when the western swing will be scheduled. I was hoping it would be done before we rise for the summer. I will at some point be making an argument—

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Tony, I can't answer your question right away. We do have committee business at the end of this meeting. I'm sorry I brought it up; perhaps I should not have done so. I'll come back to your questions after our guests have left.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Okay. And on the committee business, I know that Thursday's meeting is televised. Why isn't today's meeting televised?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Why is today's meeting not televised?

It appears that it was the decision of the chair of this committee to televise our meeting on Thursday. To my knowledge, he did not request that that meeting be televised. You know that he is absent at this time. That is why he asked me to chair this meeting. I'm going to ask him the question, and you will have an answer as soon as possible.

With your permission, I would like to defer your questions, unless they are really urgent.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

A point of order, Madam Chair.

We had this discussion before, and it was the recommendation of this committee, as I recall, that we should make every attempt to have all the committee meetings on poverty televised. That was my understanding. So, please, we need to have that discussion. I agree that we need to hear from the witnesses, but....

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you very much.

I will relay your message to the chair. He will give you his own answer on Thursday, because I think he'll be back by then.

I'm sorry about that, but we'll come back to your question, Tony, later on.

Welcome to our guests. You're not going to be big television stars this morning, and I don't know whether that's a good or bad thing, but welcome.

The order of the presentations will be the following: first of all, Madam Law and Mr. Courtneidge,

followed by Ms. Armine Yalnizyan, from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives.

Mr. Courtneidge.

11:05 a.m.

Dr. John Courtneidge Outreach and Policy, Canada Without Poverty

Chair, in a position like this, I'd like to inform the committee that my honorific is Dr. Courtneidge. Although I'm a Quaker and don't normally use my honorific title, it is probably more appropriate for the public record that it is known.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you so much.

Then Mr. Dennis Howlett, from Make Poverty History, will make his presentation.

Ms. Law and Dr. Courtneidge, who will start the presentation? Ms. Law, will you be followed by Dr. Courtneidge, or will we go directly to Mr. Howlett?

11:05 a.m.

Kelly Law Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty

I will start, followed by my colleague, Dr. Courtneidge.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

You have a total of 10 minutes, which you will share to make your presentation.

11:05 a.m.

Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty

Kelly Law

That's fine.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Ms. Law, go ahead, please.

11:05 a.m.

Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty

Kelly Law

Thank you.

Good morning. I'd like to thank the committee for this opportunity on behalf of my colleague, Dr. Courtneidge, and me.

Canada Without Poverty, officially the national anti-poverty organization, is an incorporated, not-for-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to the elimination of poverty in Canada. Founded in 1971 and based in Ottawa, Canada Without Poverty is governed by a board of directors who individually have experienced poverty at some time in their lives.

Our directors span our country from St. John's to Victoria, and from the largest city of Toronto to one of Canada's smallest and most remote communities, the Vuntut Gwitchin First Nation village of Old Crow, Yukon. The lived experience of our directors and members informs our mission, vision, values, and work.

Poverty, what Gandhi called the worst form of violence, is an affront to the values of fairness and justice and the inclusion of all persons in Canadian society. Accordingly, we envision poverty's eradication in Canada, not its mere reduction. By promoting poverty eradication as a human rights obligation with reference to Canada's international human rights commitments, we envision eradication being reached through the exercise of political will as well as of corporate social responsibility and community engagement.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

I'm sorry, but could you slow down just a bit, please? It's a little difficult for the translators.

11:10 a.m.

Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty

Kelly Law

Sure, I'll do that.

The Universal Periodic Review is a new peer review process via the United Nations Human Rights Council, through which states review the human rights records of other states. In February 2009 the Government of Canada was urged by the UN to address the growing gap between its international human rights obligations and the reality facing vulnerable groups in Canada.

The concerns and recommendations came from a wide range of states participating in the UPR. One central concern is that particularly in light of Canada's affluence, the persistence of extensive poverty, homelessness, and hunger constitute human rights violations that are in need of human rights responses. Accordingly, during the UPR, the UN Human Rights Council has recommended that Canada implement a national poverty eradication strategy that incorporates a human rights framework. It is not only Canada Without Poverty that believes that poverty eradication is possible; so too does a great Canadian, Louise Arbour, the former Supreme Court of Canada justice and former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights.

Combating poverty, deprivation, and exclusion is not a matter of charity, and it does not depend on how rich a country is. By tackling poverty as a matter of human rights obligation, the world will have a better chance of abolishing the scourge in our lifetime.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you, Madame Law.

Dr. Courtneidge, please.

11:10 a.m.

Outreach and Policy, Canada Without Poverty

John Courtneidge

I would like to give you my impressions in English because that is my mother tongue. It is English from England.

Even for Canadians, I accept and understand that my own accent is very difficult at times.

First of all, I'm going to speak to the document that explains my life situation, which has the same title, My Own Life Situation. You will be receiving copies of this, as I provided the clerk with 20 copies in English. This was largely written by my wife. It explains how we have lived in poverty for 15 years since I went back to England from Ottawa in 1994. I simply would like to read the last paragraph for you, and I hope the translators can understand my accent.

Since 1994, even though I have a PhD in chemistry and an international reputation as a research chemist, I have been largely unemployed. You could say that I've not really suffered, since one of us already had a job, we've always had a place to live, and there has always been enough food to eat. However, there have never been any extras. Every penny we spend has to be accounted for. We live a hand-to-mouth existence. It's all of this that makes us continually ill.

My wife wrote this for me because she is continuously ill from the stress of our existence—and that's typical of poverty.

I brought two books for the committee to possibly see. The first one is called The Age of Insecurity, and the second is called The Impact of Inequality.

You are probably aware that income inequality and economic inequality—that segment we call poverty—is at the heart of increasing levels of insecurity and crime worldwide. It's also responsible for the ill health that we see right across societies. If you want one phrase, I would say that poverty is poison; it's literally poison. There are molecules in your bloodstream, even though you may not live in poverty, that are reducing your longevity, increasing the possibility of your being subject to homicide, and increasing your likelihood of illness. That molecule is called cortisol.

I'd like to finish this segment with a short poem called Let Love Live.

Please pardon me for reading these words in English.

If we can live as well as we can be,
if we can do as well as we can do,
if we can live as love asks of us,
all will be well.

Your questions have asked us to provide you with indicators of levels of poverty in Canada. You will be receiving this document, but we can only provide it in English on short notice.

There are two characteristic measures that I'd like to speak to. The first one is what I call the Canadian Tire measure of poverty. You've probably seen on television the kid who goes to the lunch counter looking for a job, and the owner says “You should be playing hockey”, and the kid says, “Well, that's why I'm here”. The Canadian Tire measure—unofficially, of course—is that one-third of children live in poverty in Canada, and likewise their families.

The stronger indicator of poverty that's accepted worldwide is the Gini coefficient. It's worth looking at this on the Internet; even the much-vilified Wikipedia has a section on the Gini coefficient. That's the coefficient both the United Nations and the “Criminal Intelligence Agency” use, because the CIA knows that inequality and poverty lead to crime, violence, and war—as Hugh Segal pointed out in his Gow lecture on Friday night. We have that data, which we can share with you.

I'll hand my turn over to my colleague.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you, Dr. Courtneidge. Is that the end of your presentation? There is one minute and 40 seconds left.

11:15 a.m.

Outreach and Policy, Canada Without Poverty

Dr. John Courtneidge

I'll hand it back to my colleague, Kelly Law.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Ms. Law, go ahead.

11:15 a.m.

Associate Director, Canada Without Poverty

Kelly Law

Thank you very much.

Millions of Canadians aspire to a life free from poverty—the hungry, the homeless, and the disenfranchised, the working poor, the unemployed, and the socially assisted, the aboriginal, the immigrant, and the person of colour, the person with disabilities, the parent, the pensioner.

In support of these aspirations, a number of organizations from various sectors are mobilized in a multi-year, multi-partner, non-partisan campaign, the Dignity for All campaign. This campaign's vision is to make a poverty-free and more socially secure Canada a reality by 2020. The conviction behind this campaign is that Canadians must respect and defend the rights of every person to live with dignity.

Two principal goals of our campaign are, first, a comprehensive federal plan for poverty elimination; and second, a federal act to eliminate poverty, to promote social inclusion, and strengthen social security.

In closing, we wish to underscore that poverty renders an unacceptable cost to all Canadians, due to the well-known connection between poverty and health care costs, poverty and criminal justice outcomes, and poverty and diminished workplace productivity. Canadians thus have a profound self-interest in seeing poverty reduced and eventually eliminated. A poverty-free Canada will be a healthier, safer, more just, and more prosperous Canada.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you very much. You must have timed your presentation, because you're well within the time.

I just want to remind you, Dr. Courtneidge, that if you give your English text to our clerk, we will have it translated and circulated among the members.

Secondly, you needn't apologize for speaking in English. There are two official languages in this country, and one of them is English.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Outreach and Policy, Canada Without Poverty

Dr. John Courtneidge

Thank you for that, Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Mr. Howlett.