Human Resources Committee on May 5th, 2009

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I should clarify a few points. First of all, the loan program is totally separate from this. The loan program is $2 billion available to municipalities for housing-related infrastructure such as roads, sewers, or lighting for new subdivisions or existing property. The social housing program operates in partnership with the provinces, because in many cases they deliver the services. There are a number of parts to it.

Karen, would you like to expand a little bit further on this?

[Karen Kinsley, President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Thank you.

There is a further $2 billion for social housing, over and above the $2 billion that the minister spoke of for municipal housing-related infrastructure. Of the $2 billion for social housing, approximately $1 billion is for retrofit of the existing housing stock, and $400 million is for new construction for housing for low-income seniors. There is $75 million for housing for persons with disabilities. There is $200 million for housing in the north, and the balance is for on-reserve housing.

This is all grant money, not loan money.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

It's all the time you have, Tony. We'll have to see what we can get you later.

Mr. Komarnicki, you have seven minutes, sir.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank each of the ministers for their presentations and the excellent work their ministries are doing in the departments during somewhat trying times, given our global economy.

I have been lobbied over the years by workers, and unions in particular, on protecting workers' wages and vacation pay, especially in the event of bankruptcy. I'm looking at page 25 of the plans and priorities. It indicates that the wage earner protection program payments to eligible applicants owed wages and vacation pay from employers that are either bankrupt or in receivership, as well as payments to trustees and receivers who will provide the necessary information to determine eligibility, was $31.2 million.

Minister Ambrose, can you indicate how much we spent in this program in 2008-09, and in that year and this year, the average payment per worker?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

I'd be happy to do that.

If you don't mind, Ed, I'll quickly answer Ms. Minna's question on replacement workers.

Your question was on whether companies are using replacement workers to undermine unions. As you know, the Canada Labour Code prohibits the use of replacement workers to break unions specifically. If unions think companies are doing this, they should lodge a complaint to the Canada Industrial Relations Board. We think at this point the code strikes a good balance.

Just to give you some statistics, since the code provisions on replacement workers came into force in 1999, the Canada Industrial Relations Board has received 23 complaints on this issue: 18 were withdrawn, four have been dismissed, and one is pending. So at this point we don't see a problem with that, from the evidence before the Canada Industrial Relations Board.

Mr. Komarnicki, you are correct that under our economic action plan we recently expanded the coverage of the wage earner protection program to cover severance and termination pay. On your specific question about how much was spent on the program in 2008-09, $3.6 million was paid out. About 3,549 workers have received wage payments under the program to date. So far this year we've received 7,069 applications since the launch of the program, and we've paid out approximately $4.7 million. Those are the updated numbers for you.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

What impact do you see the recession having on this program at this time?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

We definitely expect more demand, for obvious reasons. Average weekly claims have already increased significantly since January 27 this year, when the program was expanded to include termination and severance pay.

The number of claims per week has roughly doubled since that date, and that is due to a combination of expanded eligibility--which people are taking advantage of, for good reasons--and an increase in the number of bankruptcies.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It's rather interesting. When I was being lobbied by various people about payment of vacation pay and wages that were due, the other aspect was to see if the severance and termination pay could be included in that. I see that is proposed for 2009-10. Has that program already commenced, and are people expecting to receive payments under severance and termination?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Yes, it has already commenced.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Can you explain what severance and termination pay is? We can understand that wages are those that are due at the point of bankruptcy or receivership. They are earned and need to be paid, and vacation pay is earned, but what is severance and termination pay, and what period does it relate to?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

It would obviously involve any severance or termination that's owed under the law to those employees. The Government of Canada would be acting on behalf of those employees.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

In addition to the payment of wages and vacation pay being ensured, the fact that they will be without work and looking for work over the next period of time would mean, I'm sure, that some of them would be eligible for employment insurance at some point, but there would be a payment in the first week or two weeks, I would take it, with respect to a severance amount.

Do you know what those amounts would be, or what periods they would cover?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

The program is there and has been expanded, particularly because of our concerns. We were looking ahead in the economic action plan, and previous to that we had concerns about the number of bankruptcies that we're seeing across the country, so this is just another way that we can help Canadians who are going through a rough time.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

From what I've heard from others, I'm certain that this measure will be well received by employees in particular, and unions.

Given the fixed amount of the allocation, $31.2 million, what are the administrative costs of the wage earner protection program itself? Can you give us some idea of that?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

In terms of what we've allocated for salary costs and employee benefits and non-salary costs in terms of operation and maintenance of the program, it's a total of $5.9 million. That includes the development costs as well.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Minister. This is a program that many are most anxious to see in full operation, particularly given the state of the economy and what's happening at the present time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Komarnicki.

We're going to move now to the second round. This is going to be five minutes for questions and answers. Madame Folco will lead off.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the two ministers who are with us today.

My first question is for the human resources minister and has to do with the plans and priorities set out in the estimates. According to those plans and priorities, there is a large gap in your department's forecasts for 2009-2010, in terms of the plan's administrative costs. These forecasts drop by 5.7% and 5.4% as compared with the forecasts for the two previous fiscal years, 2007-2008 and 2008-2009.

How do you explain the gap between the forecasts for 2009-2010 and those for 2007-2008 and 2008-2009? I should point out that this is only for the administrative costs of the plan.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Which plans do you mean? I did not hear the names of the plans you are referring to.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I am talking about the plans and priorities, more commonly known as the estimates.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

For the entire department, is that right?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Yes.

[Janice Charette]

Allow me to answer Ms. Folco's question.

The difference between last year's main estimates and this year's has to do with the end of the former homelessness program. The committee members will see the payments for this program, which the government renewed, in the supplementary estimates this September.

The difference exists because the program expired, and those are not shown now in the mains for this year. You will see that come back in supplementary estimates later in the year.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Unless I don't understand it,

Ms. Charette and Minister, in that case, I would have thought that the administrative costs would be higher. Since your department's overall costs and expenditures for the homelessness program are supposed to increase, I would have thought that the administrative costs would increase, as well. Am I wrong?

[Janice Charette]

It really is a timing issue, insofar as by the time the decision was made to renew the programs, basically the expenditure profiles, which are the foundation for the main estimates, had been closed. So parliamentarians, members of the committee, will see the funding associated with the renewal of the program in supplementary estimates later in the year. It's merely a timing issue, Madame Folco.