Human Resources Committee on May 5th, 2009

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

If it is a timing issue, then what would it mean in terms of the total amount of money that is being spent for people without homes,

the homeless, in previous years as compared with what you plan to spend in the next budget. Can you give us an idea of that amount?

Because, if you split it between the fiscal years, we no longer have a sense of what is going on; we no longer know how much money is really being spent.

[Janice Charette]

In terms of the amounts for this year, the government renewed the program in September 2008, as I mentioned. The strategy was extended for two years, from April 1, 2009 to March 31, 2011. Funding for the program will continue at the same level, that is, $134.8 million this year and next.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Thank you.

I will come back to that question later. I would like to ask another question that has to do with Service Canada.

I know that you have broadened the scope of Service Canada's activities, which is a good idea. I have heard good things about that. Nevertheless, last week, a member of my staff met with representatives from agencies and NGOs who work with foreign caregivers.

We learned that, in December 2007, your offices were transferred from Montreal to Toronto. The transfer, in itself, is problematic, but there is another problem: we learned that the people who work in the Toronto office are not properly trained, courteous or prepared. We have received complaints about this.

You do not have to answer right now, but I strongly urge the minister to examine what is currently happening in the Toronto office, as a result of the transfer of services from Montreal to Toronto.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Madame Folco. That's all the time we have.

Did you want a quick response?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Obviously our goal with Service Canada is to provide service. That's how we define it. We take any sort of constructive criticism very seriously. We will obviously be working, now that we are centralizing processing, to make sure that office is doing the job it's supposed to do in the way we believe Canadians deserve to get it done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Madame Folco and Minister.

We're now going to move to Mr. Cannan. You have five minutes, sir.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. Specifically I want to thank our ministers and your staff for your dedication during these challenging economic times, unprecedented for all of us around the room. I believe we all hear from our constituents that we need to work together during these difficult economic times to do what's best for our country, and I applaud you both, ministers, for your efforts and also your staff. Compliments to my Service Canada staff members in the riding, Kelowna—Lake Country, which I represent. I have the chance to work very closely with them, and my staff do as well, and they've been very responsive and receptive. I know the situations are not 100%, but they work overtime, weekends, and are very accessible, so I'd like to pass along to them, as well, my compliments on their continued efforts. They're going through this challenging time as well. They're on the front line.

One other area of interest—there are so many different areas of concern—is good labour relations. I've had the chance to be in management in a unionized sales force. I've been in a unionized sales force for five years. I was on strike. It's not a good time for anybody. I've had my own business. I've had the chance to see all sides of the fence. Madam Ambrose, one area I know you're looking at within your portfolio is trying to strengthen union-management and employer-employee relationships, not only to better working conditions, but because you know safe, stable working conditions also help improve productivity. So I wonder, Minister Ambrose, if you could specifically elaborate a little bit more on what you and your staff are doing to help promote stronger, more constructive union-management relationships in regard to federally regulated workplaces and how much you anticipate to be spending to achieve this objective.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

We have a number of initiatives under way. I would speak specifically to what we do in the labour program to promote constructive union-management relations in our federally regulated workplaces.

We have the federal mediation and conciliation service, which obviously is active. It will continue to provide dispute resolution and dispute prevention services, both to trade unions and employers, under the jurisdiction of the Canada Labour Code. We've had excellent results and excellent feedback from unions, employers, and employees on this issue. This includes, of course, the opportunity for conciliation and mediation services for parties that are engaged in collective bargaining.

The FMCS is also currently undertaking a review of our preventative mediation services. We hope they will then help improve ongoing relationships, outside of just when disputes happen, and keep open those lines of communications between employers and unions.

One of the things we administer under the labour program is the labour-management partnership program. This is specifically aimed to encourage effective labour relations, which is incredibly important, especially right now in this global economic crisis. The program provides funding assistance to support efforts by employers and unions to explore new ways to communicate with one another. It sounds very simple, but it's incredibly important in this day and age.

Subsequent and further to that, we are also engaging to modernize part III of the Canada Labour Code. I've launched consultations. Part III actually hasn't been updated since before I was born, so we think it's timely to do that. We think employers and unions have a lot to say. We're engaging our stakeholders and other parties in Parliament as well to come up with some consensus amendments and consensus ideas on ways to modernize part III of the Labour Code and modernize our labour standards in Canada.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you. Sometimes the simple is the obvious--namely, increasing communication. I applaud you on those efforts.

One other area that you commented on in your introduction was international labour agreements. One of the other committees that Mr. Chair and I have the honour of sitting on is our international trade committee. Just prior to this committee meeting this morning, we had an update on the Canada-Peru trade agreement. We're trying to expand our global trading partners.

One of the interesting aspects is that it's basically a historic labour agreement. It's a side agreement that we've signed with Peru. Colombia is moving through the house their trade agreement as well. It has similar elements.

Could you explain in a little more detail for our committee and viewers what the labour cooperation agreement entails when Canada negotiates with other countries?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Absolutely.

The labour cooperation agreements, you're correct, are historic, and they're incredibly important so that we can level the playing field for our domestic labour laws. They embody the right to freedom of association, the right to collective bargaining, the abolition of child labour, the elimination of forced or compulsory labour, and the elimination of discrimination.

They also have a mechanism through which the public can raise concerns. There are also enforceable obligations to enforce labour laws and independent third party reviews as a means of dispute resolution, including remedies to encourage fulfilment of obligations as a conclusion to dispute resolutions.

All of these things are in our labour cooperation agreements to continue to make sure that we, as we engage internationally, carry the banner of Canada as a country that believes in free trade but also believes strongly in labour rights and human rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Desnoyers, welcome to the committee. You have five minutes, sir.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Finley, Ms. Ambrose, most of my questions are for Ms. Ambrose.

As the first phase, you have undertaken consultations on part III of the Canada Labour Code. I would like to see the list of people and organizations that have been consulted. I did some checking around, and people have not heard much about the consultations. That being said, I do not need the list right now, but as soon as it is available, I would like a copy, if possible.

My second question has to do with the numbers for the Wage Earner Protection Program. You have received 7,069 applications.

How many people have received payments? What is the turnaround time for workers to receive their payments?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Desnoyers.

On your specific question about part III consultations, we have launched the consultations. I have met with some groups. We are incredibly committed to having very open consultations, including with you and your party as we move forward. I'm happy to provide you with a list of those who have been consulted. Again, the consultations continue.

In terms of the wage-earner protection program, of course, you have the numbers from the estimates, but I wanted to bring forward, as well, the updated numbers for you today. To date, we've received 7,069 applications, as of May 3. As I said, we've paid out approximately $4.7 million. The average payout is around $1,200, $1,300 per individual. Our service standard at this point is 28 days.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In terms of that same act, very few sections have been enacted. Can the minister tell us when that will happen? The act has been in force for a while now, so we should be able to enact those sections.

In my view, one of the most important sections in the act is section 67, which provides for some protection of pension plans. We know that when businesses go bankrupt in today's economic crisis, a lot of workers lose a lot of money. Whole communities are affected. So we have a real opportunity here to enact this section, because, unfortunately, it is not in force.

First, I want to know why that section was not in force when the law was enacted. Second, I want to know what the minister is waiting for to enact it. I think that we have a perfect opportunity to do it now, even though the needs are much greater than what is provided for in the act, in terms of private pension plans.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

What section, in particular?

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Section 67 provides for protection. Section 39 imposes obligations on the employer. Under those obligations, when the employer declares bankruptcy, it has to protect its pension commitments. And section 67 ensures that protection.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

I'll have to get back to you on that. As you know, the issue related to pensions is obviously a very complicated, very difficult issue that we're looking at right now. The Minister of Finance has been tasked with his parliamentary secretary in consulting across Canada on this particular issue and in working closely with labour program officials and me.

Again, in terms of the part III consultations, in particular, we'll continue to consult with stakeholders, including you and the party, as we move forward. But of course, as you recognized, it's been around since 1965. I think I might keep this law around; it makes me feel young.

I think you might be confusing part III with the CCA. Is that correct?

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

No, it is in the Wage Earner Protection Program Act, in the event of bankruptcy. These sections are in the act but are not yet in force.

Basically, my question is this: When will the minister enact these sections of the act, which received royal assent a while ago now?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

I think you're speaking of the CCA, which is actually under the purview of the Minister of Industry, and about particular amendments that were made quite some time ago and have not received royal assent. I think you're confusing the two different laws.

Having said that, we can get that information for you.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I am not confusing the two acts.

Bill C-55 received royal assent on November 25, 2005. Then, in 2008, certain sections of the act came into force. The act, by the way, was passed in late 2005, under a Liberal government.

The Conservatives have enacted some sections, but I think that the section on pensions has been forgotten—a section that is awfully important given today's economic climate.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

I do recognize that. As I said, CCA falls under the purview of the Minister of Industry. You're correct in that it is an issue for us, as well. I will be happy to get some of that information back to you. I recognize those amendments have not received royal assent. Again, that is under the purview of the Minister of Industry, but we can provide you with some further information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister.

We're now going to move to Mr. Vellacott for five minutes.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Finley and Minister Ambrose, for being here today.

I want to direct a few questions just as a follow-up to some of my colleagues here with respect to the labour program activity and the consultations with the stakeholders on some concrete ways for modernizing part III. If you'd take some notes, Minister, I have four questions.

First, do you know or have some rounded figure in terms of how much has been spent on that initiative so far in terms of the consultation with stakeholders for modernizing part III?

Second, what would be your sense or your department's sense in terms of the key challenges in modernizing federal labour standards--first, a dollar amount, then what has been spent thus far, then the key challenges?

Third, is non-compliance with and non-enforcement of part III of the Canada Labour Code a major issue? If that's the case, what will be done in the year ahead to ensure a greater compliance under that part of the code?

Fourth, we've talked in terms of the moves, the concrete action for updating part III, but do you have some precise dates in terms of when you anticipate that would be completed?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Thank you very much.

A commission reported in mid-October of 2006, and that commission itself had a total cost of $4.4 million. In terms of the public consultations we've been doing to date, we've incurred costs of $21,000, and those are merely due to translation and printing costs.

In terms of the key challenges to modernizing the federal labour standards, you can imagine there have been profound changes to labour markets since 1965, so a number of stakeholders would like to make amendments and see some changes. I think what we want to focus on most, though, is to make sure that any amendments we do introduce will really help our federal employees in their efforts to run efficient businesses and effectively deploy workforces in these changing market conditions. We need to make sure our labour standards support flexible workplaces. They reflect contemporary labour markets, of course, the structures and the positions companies are in to compete in what is now a globalized economy, as opposed to that of 1965.

We also want to continue to make sure our employees in the federal jurisdiction have good work environments and can engage in productive paid work. At the same time, we have to think about how their lives have changed as well, balancing family and civic responsibilities.

So there are a number of key challenges, but we also have a number of willing stakeholders who have thought about this issue for a very long time and are working with us on amendments.

In terms of non-compliance with the Canada Labour Code and whether or not that's a major issue, it's really difficult to quantify how serious the problem of non-compliance is, because for every case of non-compliance that's reported by a worker, we also identify those within our own inspection efforts. So based on our experience so far in the field, we feel that generally speaking federal labour standards are well respected, but I believe we can do more, specifically in the area of education to make employers and employees aware of their responsibilities and rights. Often that's really what it gets down to. Employees may not know what their rights are and employers may not understand their obligations under the Canada Labour Code.

What we've been trying to do more than anything is to have proactive educational efforts to balance against this need to also investigate labour standards complaints.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Do you have any sense in terms of when this action would be taken and brought to completion in terms of part III of the Canada Labour Code? Do you have some anticipated dates?