Human Resources Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Karen Jackson]

Yes, they would have been part of the review of the documents.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

That's what I thought, and presumably he could have shared them in advance and some others could have had advance notice of what the RFP was in this case, given the proximity.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yves Lessard]

You still have a few second.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Of all these projects, have you funded these many times? Maybe it's just a statement. For me, a percentage of nothing is nothing, so if you're getting, say, 35% or even 15%, it doesn't matter. The actual number of dollars is small. I'm simply going to say that I find this totally unusual, that one month is given for a major project like that, especially when you're trying to establish flagship...no discussion of communication. I find that very odd, but that's just a comment, because there's no time for a reply.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yves Lessard]

Thank you, Ms. Minna.

I was going to use the time allotted to the Bloc Québécois for the second round, but in the second round, the Conservatives have the floor a second time. You were right to remind me. I apologize.

Mr. Lobb.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Mr. Lobb is going to allow me to make a 30-second comment during his time, and the comment is simply that when we're talking about percentages, the difference between what Ms. Jackson was talking about and what he's talking about could be that the percentage she gives is for the previous representation of Liberals and Conservatives compared to today, when there are more Conservatives, so when he was correcting the record, his correction may need to be corrected. I just wanted to make that point, and then we'll move on to Mr. Lobb.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yves Lessard]

Mr. Savage, on a point of order.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

If he's questioning the statistics, they come directly from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

All I'm saying is that there are fewer Liberals today in those ridings than perhaps there were then. I'll leave that for its own; it'll take care of itself when we look at the record. I don't want to take away more time from Mr. Lobb.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Yves Lessard]

You have the floor, Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lessard. I don't know if I have two minutes left or four minutes and thirty seconds, but we'll go until the beeper.

I think a lot about programs, programming, and accessibility, especially about a program specifically tailored to enabling accessibility, but I also think about other programs that promote and support persons with disabilities and enabling accessibility. I thought about a program called the New Horizons program, which I'm sure you're familiar with, and its support for seniors in allowing them to remain active and mobile in their senior years. I thought about a project in my riding that provided a new parking lot for a church to allow those using canes, wheelchairs, or walkers to still attend their church service.

When we look at one moment in time, or one second in time, we can see things through different lenses, but I like to take the approach where you look at the big picture and the entire landscape. In particular, I think about announcements this year on infrastructure. I again think back to my riding and perhaps a fire hall that is going to get built and will promote and enable further accessibility. I think about a library in Teeswater that would allow more accessibility for those in the municipality of South Bruce to further utilize the library there. I think about a theatre in Grand Bend that this government has made investments in, along with the province, and that will further enable accessibility.

I'm sure my colleagues across the way have numerous other examples of those types of investments in their riding. I think of a facility in Blyth that's going to also renovate and create bathrooms in that area. That's going to allow for accessibility.

As well, I also think about the provincial investment that's been made in enabling and promoting accessibility. I think of a town hall in one of my towns and an investment of $4 million, three-quarters of which was an investment by the Province of Ontario. Again, it's a very good example of the theme we've worked on so far this year, the theme of all parties and all levels of government working together to get results for Canadians and, in this example, results for people in my riding of Huron--Bruce. To give you an example, that town provides marriage services to people. People could not even get married inside the building. So the province provided those dollars, and as well, we in turn provided dollars to the province.

So if we want to look at one lens at one moment in time, that's our prerogative. But if we choose to look at a big picture and a big approach, the lens changes significantly, in my opinion.

I wonder if you could perhaps provide more information here, if you have any, on some programs for New Horizons. You may not, but if you do have any information on the New Horizons program, perhaps you could provide that.

[Karen Jackson]

I don't have a lot at hand, but as I said quickly in answer to one of the other questions, yes, within the New Horizons program, there is a component that does indeed specifically support improvements to the accessibility of facilities that seniors use. As I said in my opening remarks, we do see increasing rates of disability as people age, so it is there to recognize that as a priority.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I thought so. Another part I was curious about is the physical accessibility for ramps and around vehicle modifications and so forth. I wonder if you could share that information with the committee.

[Karen Jackson]

I can. It was part of the criteria of the small projects that we would indeed be able to help make changes to automobiles, buses, whatever, to increase the access to transportation services. We do know, actually, from that Statistics Canada survey I referred to, that probably over 200,000 adults in Canada do not have access to transportation because of barriers of that sort.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, Ben.

We'll now go to Monsieur Lessard. Monsieur, thank you for taking over for a period of time for me.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

It was my pleasure, Mr. Chair. They gave me a hard time while you were away.

Were the same criteria in place for the second request for proposals as in the case of the first request for proposals?

[Karen Jackson]

The second request for proposals was tailored to applications for small projects only, but beyond that, yes, the same criteria, the same program objectives that were in place for 2008 are in place for 2009.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I see.

How do you explain then that some people who had their initial project proposal rejected were invited to submit a request the second time around? If they were deemed ineligible the first time, I don't see how they could be selected in the second round.

[Karen Jackson]

As I explained, there were applications the first time around that would have gone through and met mandatory requirements, then as we looked at them and scored them against the criteria around reduction of barriers, around community support, etc., they may indeed have achieved a certain score, but there were so many that were better than them that they were the ones that got the financial support.

We can't prioritize before we gather applications and begin to assess them, know whether or not something that didn't get funded last time won't get funded this time. It is possible.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Did the same two companies set the notional budgets for large and small projects?

[Karen Jackson]

Yes, we are working with the same expert company with respect to both those components, except for the vehicles.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

The government initially budgeted $45 million for this program. Was there an understanding that two thirds of the funds would be allocated to only two projects? Would it not have been better to try and have these investments benefit all regions of the country, since each project could receive between $1 million and $15 million? Why was the decision made to allocate $15 million each to two projects in two specific regions?

[Karen Jackson]

As I said, in the consultation and in the design stage of the program, it was at that point that we had the notional budgets for the two components set in the order of $30 million and $15 million, $30 million for the major and $15 million for small. I do say that in that stage, planning and designing the program and doing the research, it was realized that probably with $30 million, what we were going to be able to fund by way of these flagship ability centres was one to three projects, and that indeed, once we received and evaluated the applications, turned out to be the case.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

You talk about regional equity, but you were well aware that two-thirds of the money budgeted was going to only two regions. I have here a large project proposal for which approximately $4 million was requested. The request was denied because ownership of the property was a requirement. However, the parties submitting the proposal would have purchased the property had the proposal been accepted. Now they are being told that they might be eligible for the second call for proposals. Yet, they are no longer eligible, because theirs would be a large project.

What are we to make of this?

[Karen Jackson]

As I said, when we notionally allocated $30 million for major projects, we did expect we would only be able to fund between one in three projects.