I just want to indicate that it's frustrating. The minister was here on October 8, the officials were here on October 6, and we asked questions. We receive it at the meeting where we're doing clause-by-clause. I remind you, we were going to be doing clause-by-clause last Thursday. This wouldn't have been much use to us if we'd received it now after having done clause-by-clause.

It's typical of what I received when we were working on the EI working group over the summer, trying to get information out of the department. I don't blame the officials for this, but I blame somebody else. This is really unacceptable, and I just want to register that. Our position hasn't changed.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thanks, Mr. Savage.

Mr. Lessard.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, that is downright outrageous. We have been asking for this information for a month now. And now here you are with that information, and you are telling us that we have five minutes to form an opinion. Not only is that undemocratic, but it is also just plain wrong. We have a parliamentary responsibility, and we intend to fulfill that responsibility properly. The way that you and your party are behaving is preventing us from doing that. This is unacceptable. We just received two documents containing very specific and very interesting information, and they require careful analysis. How do you expect us to carry out that analysis and come to an appropriate decision in five minutes?

I am telling you: you have not heard the last of this. It makes absolutely no sense. Just like you, we have a mandate to represent our constituents, and they expect us to have the information we need to make decisions. You come here with all the information on hand. You had time to review it. You are putting us in a position where we are forced to make a decision when we did not even have the information we needed.

You were ready to make us take a vote, while you had the documentation. Once we received the documents, you gave us five minutes to review them. That is not parliamentary behaviour. We do not accept that. Anyone who claims otherwise does not understand what they are doing here.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

That's seven and a half minutes, actually.

Mr. Lobb.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

I have a comment on the note from Mr. Lessard and Mr. Savage. I've been sitting in this room, along with my colleagues here, and I don't remember them asking for that more than once. I'd like to see their follow-up correspondence asking where it is. I've heard them at all these meetings, and this is the second time they've mentioned it--the first time and just now. So they can beat the drums and pound on the table as loud as they want; they have the documents in front of them now. I've reviewed them and I'm satisfied by what's in the documents. They can have their five seconds to make their comments and we'll just leave it at that.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay.

I've got on the list Mr. Cannan, Mr. Komarnicki, Mr. Savage, Mr. Lessard, and Ms. Minna.

Mr. Cannan.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I empathize with my colleagues across the way. It's the first we've seen this information.

But to the clerk, it says on the top that it was faxed at 9:03 this morning. I was just wondering why it wasn't distributed to the offices at that time.

4 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Georges Etoka

We did not receive the documents by fax. I had to make copies, and there was no time to send it in separate envelopes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

You just scan it. You have a scanner and it takes five minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

If the documents had been sent by e-mail, I'm sure they could have sent them out, but faxed documents--

October 27th, 2009 / 4 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

He could have just asked the department to send it electronically. It's not rocket science.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

It wasn't sent electronically; it was sent by fax.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Ron Cannan Conservative Kelowna—Lake Country, BC

I know, but just scan the fax. We're in the 21st century. I do it in my office all the time, so I don't understand why we wouldn't get it earlier from the clerk. It's not acceptable, in my mind.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Komarnicki.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Just to make a point here, and I don't want to make a smokescreen and get all worked up about it, but the fact of the matter is there was talk about getting this bill passed immediately when we first talked about this bill. We wanted to be sure we got this forward so that those who are entitled to them can get the benefits. We then decided to elongate the process to ensure we could have hearings, and we're going to have departmental witnesses and some additional witnesses, and we extended that for yet another day to benefit Mr. Lessard, who wanted additional witnesses called. We did that, and we heard the issues back and forth and what they are. The long and the short of it is we need to see if the essence of the bill is passed or not, and we're saying it needs to get passed.

As to the fact of the numbers, he's going to argue whether it's 190,000 helped or 180,000 helped. We do know what the definitions are, very clearly, and those who fit the definitions will be helped. They will be into the thousands, somewhere in the area of 190,000, give or take. That material explains how it came out to it and how they came out to cost it.

We need to get on with the business of having this matter go forward, and I would suggest that after some opportunity for debate, we need to go to clause-by-clause, and I would so move.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Savage.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I just want to respond to Mr. Lobb's comments implying that, if the government is asked by a committee for information, they're not obliged to give it unless we ask two or three or four more times. That is an abdication of responsibility not only to this committee but to Parliament and further beyond that to the people who will be affected by this bill.

We did indicate we were opposed to this bill for discriminatory reasons. We asked the minister those questions about where the 190,000 came from. Mr. Lobb and others will recall that I asked a number of witnesses if they'd been able to do any analysis on this bill, on their own, to identify the 190,000, because we had heard early on that there might be 60,000. But who knows that? Who has the resources to do this kind of analysis? The department does. Everybody else said they don't have the numbers to know that, but at some point in time you have to believe....

I would remind members that the government came up with a cost for a 360-hour national standard of $4.4 billion, about which they themselves later said they were sorry but it was $2.5 billion. In fact, it was $1.2 billion. The government still uses that $4-billion-plus account in the House of Commons.

If we ask for information as a committee and the minister and officials oblige us by saying they'll get back to us, they should get back to us. We shouldn't have to beg them for the information.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

I have Mr. Lessard and then Ms. Minna.

Mr. Lessard.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Chair, the remarks of our friend, Mr. Lobb, make me think that he must have missed a good number of meetings.

The day that the bill was introduced, we attended a briefing with officials. It was supposed to be a half-hour, but we made it go to an hour. Most of my colleagues who are here today were there. We asked for precisely this information. The next day, in the House, when we discussed Bill C-50, I again asked the parliamentary secretary here today to get us that information. It could not have been more official, Mr. Chair. Every time that the issue was debated in committee, we repeated our request. When the minister appeared two weeks ago, we asked for the information yet again.

How can you tell us that we have only five minutes to review the information? Mr. Chair, that is downright outrageous, and flies in the face of the democratic process and our responsibilities. I asked for 15 minutes. That is not a lot, when you consider that it will give us time to examine the basic data and get some clarification about the bill. You said that we could have 5 minutes, not 15. But 5 minutes is not even enough time to finish reading the second document.

Mr. Chair, I am not a computer. You cannot even enter the data in a computer in such a short amount of time, and you expect me to do more than that in 5 minutes? Something is wrong with that picture. Of course, we want to be as effective as possible, but that is ridiculous.

For these reasons, I would like 10 minutes more so that we can review the documentation and form an opinion.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. I actually gave you seven and a half, so I'll give you another seven and a half. Let's finish what I've got on the list and then I'll add another—

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Let's not play that game, Mr. Chair. We have been waiting for these documents for a month and a half. Give us enough time to review them properly. Then we can proceed quickly.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We can do that, not a problem. I'll finish the list and then we'll give another 10 minutes for Mr. Lessard to look at that.

I have Ms. Minna, Mr. Godin, and then Mr. Komarnicki.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

My comments are very simple, Mr. Chair. If it means that some members need to have 10 or 15 minutes to read it so we can go on to clause-by-clause, we've used up that much time in this discussion.

The only thing I would ask is that Mr. Lobb and any members who suggest that when a committee asks for information...to say show me the correspondence for all of the other requests...we don't have to request.... When standing committees ask the minister or officials or anyone for documentation, and they make a commitment to send, there is no need to follow up. In fact the onus of that is on the chair or the clerk to follow up to get that information. The onus is on the minister and the officials to get it in good time for the committee to use, not for us to have to chase it. I just want to make that clear; that is proper procedure.