Human Resources Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2011

[Cathy Giblin]

I would have to agree with Ms. Gordon's comments about information overseas. It's a tremendous leap to imagine somebody coming from Manila and successfully integrating into the workplace in Fort McMurray, Alberta. That's what's happening. That's what people are encountering. Getting information in plain language that realistically presents our Canadian context to people before they leave their countries is something that would be tremendously beneficial.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Just to go back, I know that the other two of you, Ms. Gordon and Ms. Giblin, were asked whether it was valuable that it be a single-sourced shop. We have several programs overseas, as well as here in Canada. We heard your answer to that question, Ms. Munoz.

Do you think it would be more valuable to have single-source, single-area, one-stop shopping for dealing with the foreign credentialling file from a federal government perspective?

[Ximena Munoz]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Right now the federal government offers several programs between several different departments. Would a single source be helpful, or is it better to deal with the multiple departments?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Make it a short answer, Ms. Munoz.

[Ximena Munoz]

I think, for sure, multiple departments to get.... No, sorry, single-source, I guess—

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Working together?

[Ximena Munoz]

Yes, working together for sure.

I think the information is very good. The issue with information is that it has to be the right information. That's where we're failing right now. Regulators are not involved in what information is being put out there. Much of the information out there is just not specific enough to be helpful to people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll move now to Ms. Day.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I will address you in French, so I will speak slowly. I have a lot of questions to ask. I am particularly interested in workplace training.

People from other countries who get on-the-job training receive allowances for transportation and childcare, but do they get paid while on training? This is a very short question that Ms. Gordon can answer at this time.

[Suzanne Gordon]

In our bridge training programs, the issue of design is left to each service provider. The answer is that in some of the programs they are paid work placements; in others, they may not be. Some programs offer work placements; some only offer a mentorship or a networking event with an employer. What we try to do in all instances is to push the service provider to get that employer interaction.

In the regulated professions where a clinical component is required before one can sit the exam, those are paid. We would prefer that all of the work placements be paid. Again, the issue is to get the individuals to meet the employer. When we talked about mentorship earlier, mentorship is a wonderful program. But I can tell you that when somebody is in a job for three to six months, the retention rate is usually 80%. It's about having the job. It's about being in the workplace with the right kind of supports—and that doesn't take very much often. That is really the key factor. So it's a bit of both, to answer your question.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My next question is about ethics. I understand three provinces are presently involved, Nova Scotia where this is being done, as well as Ontario and Manitoba.

Do ethics commissioners meet for discussions? What are the main constraints you are facing?

[Ximena Munoz]

We've started to. I think they've been helpful initially in just looking at our approach. When I first came on, I went to Ontario and spent some time with the office in Ontario. Nova Scotia is now doing the same thing.

We are looking for a venue to actually get together. We get together at conferences or things like that. But we haven't really had a more structured way of connecting, and we would like to have that.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I do not know if it is the fairness commissioner or Ms. Giblin who will answer my next question.

For example, when an immigrant who is a nursing graduate is involved in a bridge training program, she gets a degree when she completes her training.

Is this degree recognized as being equivalent to that of Canadian-trained nurses? When she completes the bridge training program, can she apply for a job and get the same salary as a Canadian-trained nurse? If not, what is the difference between immigrants and those who are Canadian-trained?

[Cathy Giblin]

Would you like me to start?

At the very least, in Alberta there is no difference. The pay rates are set through collective agreements established between the health service providers and the labour unions. I believe that's the case in each of the provinces across the country.

Therefore, no, the agreements don't consider where the person was educated. They all come with the same credential and they're paid accordingly.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it difficult to find jobs for trainees?

I am really sorry. I do not know how to pronounce your name. Is it Mrs. Munoz?

[Ximena Munoz]

You can call me Ximena; it's easier.

Well, Ontario's situation is very different from the rest of the country's. As Suzanne was saying, they're all really important and interesting, but it's not the reality across the country. In Manitoba there are very few programs where people can actually get work experience and get paid; those are almost non-existent.

I'm sorry, I forgot the last question you had. Is it difficult to set up programs? Was that the question?

It is difficult because you need a group of stakeholders together, and you need the employers at the table. That's been a big challenge—to get the employers to the table. What employers keep saying to me is that they want one source, a trusted source, who can tell them, “Yes, take this person because, although they haven't been recognized yet, I know they have this and this and that, and it's going to be helpful for you.” That doesn't really exist.

So it is difficult. If the programs are just being run by immigrant agencies, they have very little credibility when it comes to the regulated professions. Those employers want to talk to somebody who knows about the profession, who can tell them about an immigrant in that profession.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In my own province of Quebec, there is a shortage of labour in many areas. I guess it is the same in Central Canada. You probably have the same shortages.

Are some trades and professions specifically targeted when programs are set up to attract more people? Yes?

[Ximena Munoz]

Yes, we do. We have a very successful provincial nominee program that does that.

We have no control over are the spouses of people who come selected for a particular profession. So we have more doctors or dentists coming in who have not been selected, but they are the spouses of someone who has been selected. They are in the province and they're going to make their life there, and they're looking for recognition to be able to work in their profession.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. Your time is up.

We'll move to Mr. Mayes. Go ahead.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

One of the interesting things that I want to follow up on is what Mr. McColeman said about the trades. I think, Madam Gordon, you said that in some instances they were sort of bypassing the process of getting credentials and just going to work.

All of you are from or have some source of government money. I just wonder if there is an opportunity for the private sector to partner in this, because in most cases, they are the ones who need the people. So should they be partnering and financing some of this? I'm sure there are cases where they do that in some sectors.

So first, how do you feel about that; and second, have you had any experience with that?

[Suzanne Gordon]

It would be lovely if the private sector funded some of this. Let me say that our universities, colleges, and employment service providers are not-for-profit agencies, and they are getting donations from the private sector as well, so I think we need to recognize that.

We have one bridging program I mentioned, the pharmacy program, that did receive a fairly significant private sector donation that is sustaining that program into the future, and we're delighted.

The opportunity for the private sector is also there, not just in terms of the financial donation, but also in terms of offering the work placement. I would say that it's a struggle in Ontario for that paid work placement, just as it would be in other provinces. That said, I believe I heard that a bridging program in Alberta was started up there because the employer said, “I'll pay for it. I need the people. I'll pay for it.” I think the measure of the labour market's hunger is the extent to which the employer comes to the table, and they come in different ways and they need to be encouraged to participate as they can.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'd like to follow up a little bit on what Mr. Daniel had to say about mentorship and internship.

Has there been any effort to look at a bar or a level they have to reach? For example, a person comes in who is a level 1 intern in carpentry or a level 1 intern in another profession, and the person can move up as he or she is tested. People would be in the workforce doing a certain level of work and would be paid a certain amount of money so that they could feed their families.

The biggest challenge, especially for new immigrants that have not done their homework, is that they get here, have to feed their kids, and yet are not able to go to jobs in the professions they have.

Is there any way we could look at something like that? I know that standards have to be met, especially in the health professions. Probably the biggest reason the health professions have a more challenging time getting people credentialled is the height of the bar, and the bar is high because of the responsibility to provide competent health care to Canadians.

Do you have any comments about that thought, Mrs. Munoz?

[Ximena Munoz]

I think the notion of laddering is one that would be very useful. It's not happening.

For example, dentistry, which I'm familiar with, has four different occupations within it. It would be possible to assess people. Maybe a person meets a certain basic requirement and can be an assistant, which is the first level. If the person wants to continue to move up, he or she may take a course or may take more gap training and maybe become a dental hygienist. After another year or two years, maybe the person can move from dental hygienist to dentist. I think that is a good model. I know that's working in other countries in the world. It's not being followed.

There is also a challenge for employers. When employers know that there's a good program, and the people are coming out of the program and have all the competencies they need, they're very happy to support it. Manitoba Hydro supports an engineers program, because they know that they need engineers and that if those people come through the program, they're going to be very good employees.

On another issue, the challenge for employers in non-health occupations is that they can get immigrants to come and do the work. These immigrants can't call themselves by the title of the profession, but they do the same work. There isn't a lot of incentive for employers, particularly in the trades, to really go out of their way to tell people to get their trade qualifications, because they can get the same kind of work done by somebody and pay a lower rate. That's a reality for their businesses. If that's working for them, they're quite happy.

It is difficult. I think the trades and the professions for which you don't need a title to practice are difficult areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You have about a minute.