Evidence of meeting #32 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Still, if we could keep the answers fairly concise, I'd appreciate it.
Mr. Knight, I thought you hit right on it when you were talking about the number of applications that are received in a particular course versus the number you're able to accommodate. So there is the capacity aspect of it. I want you to share with the committee—not now, but I want you to think about it and give us a concise answer on it—what role the federal government plays in building that capacity.
Ms. Robinson and Mr. O'Heron, you mentioned the labour market information. As much as HRSDC takes a great deal of pride in the information it provides, witness after witness has said it's mushy; it's generic; it doesn't really help a whole lot. Do you believe that HRSDC should be out of the business or that they should just do a better job of providing the information? Maybe I can get your comments on that now.
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
I don't think HRSDC should be out of the business. The question is how to help them with a very reduced budget. Let's not put HRSDC totally front and centre. Statistics Canada is also at play here.
So how do we do things with greatly reduced spending in the labour market information? I'm no LMI expert. I refer you to a compendium of ideas that you have from Don Drummond and Rick Miner. In May of 2009 this government created that panel, the advisory panel on labour market information. What I will say is that in a context of tremendous cost containment, every one of us publicly funded institutions can produce the data for HRSDC. But because the provinces own our data, we have never put it up for a national purpose.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
So there has to be a mechanism in there ensuring that data.
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Absolutely. I'm told by HRSDC officials that the “Working in Canada” portal is going to do exactly this, but how, if we are not connected to 95 universities and 152 community colleges, polytechnics, and institutes? We can work together on this.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
And you feel that the direction given in the 2009 report, that from that panel report—
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
It is exhaustive and it will cost. That is probably one of the reasons why much of the 2009 report has not been actioned, because every one of those surveys costs money. So the question is, as I think Herb is saying, with the vast amount of data that AUCC has, each and every one of the colleges has to satisfy their provincial masters—how many students, how many graduations? Why are we not putting this all harnessed together into a national accessible database?
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay, that's great.
Do you have a quick comment on that?
Director, Research and Policy Analysis Division, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
Sure. In fact, we have been putting that kind of data out on enrolments, and in very detailed ways out into the public, and in many ways for many years. And we certainly share with universities so that they can assess where there's a need or a niche that's not being filled. So there's an awful lot of sharing that is possible.
Every occupational system that's been developed is always looking a little bit backwards, so it's very, very hard to look forward. You need to take the kinds of data that do exist, keep adjusting them, and keep them fluid.
I think it is really important to say that we can pick 100 or 150 occupations—100 or 150 disciplines—and match them up now. We can do it right now, and I can do it off this computer and show it to you right now for universities and colleges across this country. So I think there are lots of ways to do that. Much of it is going to be at an aggregate rather than back to the individual, especially in—
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
But it's just striking me strange that HRSDC isn't accessing the information that's out there.
Director, Research and Policy Analysis Division, Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada
It's really from them. It's just a matter of displaying what it is they're showing, what it is that the census of Canada shows on those fronts.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay, that's great.
Could we get Mr. Knight's comments on the point you were making there?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
I concur with my colleage Ms. Robinson that there is much that we're doing and there is much more that we can do. It is difficult to drill down to a local environment, though. I mean, people are—
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
No, I'd like your comments just on the capacity thing, the role the federal government would play in developing the capacity.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Association of Canadian Community Colleges
Well, as I mentioned, there is something called the Canada social transfer, and embedded within that is a considerable amount for post-secondary education, $3.8 billion with an annual increment. It was announced and renewed in December.
I just want to know if there would be an appetite at some point. I suggest there might be an appetite at some point for attaching some strings to that in the same way that there are outcome expectations for the Canada social transfer.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Okay.
Ms. Robinson, in your information you say there are 34,000 apprentices but that the completion rate isn't great.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
What's the problem with the completion rate? Where are the barriers with the completion rate? The completion rate is about 10%, isn't it?
Chief Executive Officer, Polytechnics Canada
Some data show 7%, but if you will permit me, and in the interest of time, we'll ask the expert, Ken Doyle.
Liberal
Ken Doyle Director, Policy, Polytechnics Canada
Thank you.
One of the major impediments is just the data itself. It's simply not available. There are no coherent data on what the actual completion rate is, and nobody is able to explain how many apprentices are enrolled at what level in what programs across the country. And because an apprenticeship is a relationship of the apprentice with the employer and the government, there are incentives for the apprentice to stay in at the beginning, but nothing to help them through, so financial obligations come up.
For employers, there's a risk of having the apprentice poached when they become a journey-person, so there's not a lot of incentive to keep them on and have them get their ticket, for risk of having them poached by another employer.
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
These are people who have shown an interest, have taken the initial steps and that kind of stuff, but who have only about a 10% or 7% completion rate. We have to find out what those barriers are.
Do I still have time?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
You have about four seconds. You may want to ask a question if you're going to....
Liberal
Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Yes, short questions, short answers.
Right now people who take trades training are eligible to receive EI. Going to university, you're not eligible to receive EI. May I have your comments on that? Should it be available to people who go to university?