Human Resources Committee on April 25th, 2012

[Jean-Marie Berthelot]

Each of the provincial governments wants to reform its health care system to be able to meet the needs of an aging population. We are looking at what is going on in Denmark, the Netherlands and elsewhere.

With respect to the idea of implementing a pan-Canadian system that everyone should conform to, I think it is unrealistic and not necessarily desirable. Within diversity, we can learn from the experience of others, from their successes and their failures. Regardless, it is clear that the provincial governments want to reform their health care system. They are actively working on it, but changing all the services provided takes time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. Your time is up.

We'll conclude with Ms. Leitch.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to go back a little bit to our skills gap question. I know we talked a bit about how the average age of retiring nurses is 57, but I think the average age of most nurses in the workforce is older. The average age of a physician, at least in the province of Ontario, is 53.

There are some substantial challenges. With this aging of the health care professionals across the country, I am wondering what your thoughts are on how we can increase the participation rate of those groups who don't traditionally enter into health care professional roles. I'm thinking of aboriginal Canadians—and there Dr. Sweetman talked about spots for them going vacant at Queen's—or individuals with disabilities, for whom maybe there are things we should be doing to allow them to take on these roles, albeit some of them are quite physical, or older workers who want to transition into health care professional roles.

Do you have some thoughts on what we can do to help deal with our looming skills gap by focusing on those three groups of individuals: aboriginal Canadians, persons with disabilities, or older workers transitioning into filling that gap?

[Rachel Bard]

I would definitely say that if there are some programs that would actually better support student entering into.... For instance, going through the university years, if you have an older student who has children, you need to have some programs that will allow them not to have to worry as they're trying to study. You could also have a student with an aging parent.

Again, if you really want to bring people back into some of those professions, you need to start looking at programs. We need to look at social programs. We also need to look at how we provide incentives when they are graduating so that we assist them with the burden of the student loans and to make it more appealing, for instance, to bring them to a rural community.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

With respect to the student loan issue, just so you are aware, this government has made a commitment to physicians, as well as to nurses and nurse practitioners, for specific reductions in their loans upon graduation if they go to a rural or remote area.

Are there any other comments on this?

[Jean-Marie Berthelot]

I think that when we talk about involving specific groups, we need to talk about the culture of these groups. I think they're probably the best ones to answer your questions.

[Dr. Arthur Sweetman]

In terms of aboriginals, there's clearly an enormous amount of work that could be done. As I said earlier, funding aboriginal organizations to assist them and starting with education at a much lower, or K to 12 more generally, I think is where we need to form a foundation. I say that because that foundation is the issue; it's not about access to post-secondary education. From the institutions' point of view, it's about preparation for post-secondary education that's the key issue.

In terms of the retirement issue, there are dramatic differences across professions. As you know, physicians never retire. The number of physicians over 80 who are still practising is very substantial. Nurses retire much, much younger. There's no one solution; there are a lot of occupation-specific issues that need to be addressed.

For people with disabilities, I know less about that, but my impression in general is that this is becoming less and less of a barrier in many health professions.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much.

Is there time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Yes, you still have time, if you wish to use it.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I still have time. I'm very excited.

I'll ask one last question. With respect to the current federal programs that are available, what are your thoughts about what the federal government can do to deal with the labour pool size and meeting future demands? We have a certain suite of programs right now, but what are the ones you believe are working that should be our focal point?

If you have some thoughts on that, I would greatly appreciate it, just so that we're aware of what you're hearing from your professional colleagues. You mentioned the student loans, but are there others?

[Rachel Bard]

We would hope that the federal government consider looking at a more pan-Canadian approach. There is a committee on human resources, the CCHRA, but it could do more by looking at and creating an observatory so that we really start looking at some of the trends and demands and the population's needs, and how we deploy our resources. So I think there are good programs in place. We need to try to maximize them.

CIHI is another good program, but we've been recommending that there be a unique identifier to be able to better track our resources, to know about their mobility and where they are moving. I think there's a good foundation. We need to continue to supplement it so that we are able to take decisions based on evidence.

[A Voice]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

You don't have to comment. It's okay. You're allowed to take a pass.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Is there anyone else wishing to comment?

[Dr. Arthur Sweetman]

I think that the Canada student loan program is working reasonably well. I think we should in some sense be quite pleased about that.

In terms of training, HRSDC's information programs are good. They're perhaps not excellent yet, but I know there's a lot of work under way to provide labour market information, and I think there are some real moves being made. I think the changes that have been and are under way on the immigration side are quite positive. I think there are some real solutions there to some real problems.

So I think there are a number of good things, either in progress or operating, at the moment.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for taking the time to appear before us and for sharing your insight and suggestions with respect to the matters we're considering. We certainly want you to know that we appreciate that. Thank you for coming.

We'll suspend for a few moments. We have some matters of committee business to deal with, so I would ask the members to hold back for a couple of minutes.

Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera]