Human Resources Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[Jean-François LaRue]

As we mentioned, there are a couple of initiatives ongoing. The federal government has a suite of programs, as I mentioned. Certainly, conducting more and more awareness initiatives and doing programs targeted specifically at youth, the way that Ms. Bertrand has been speaking to, targeted at promoting the trades and starting as early as possible as part of the education system, is a key aspect of it. Given that education is a provincial area of responsibility, this has to be done in partnership with the provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Shory. Your time is up.

Does anyone else wish to make comments?

If not, I will now recognize the member from Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In my opinion, no economic recovery program is possible because we do not really have in place a true national human resources plan. Over the past two years we have seen signs everywhere, whenever a small stretch of sidewalk was being repaired. We see big signs touting economic recovery, as though even brushing one's teeth were now a part of a broad economic recovery plan, whereas human resources are the real heart of the matter. This will determine whether or not there is economic recovery in the near future.

To have a human resources picture comparable to that of other countries such as Australia or Germany, could entail costs on the order of hundreds of millions of dollars. If we extended loans beyond the two-year mark, for instance, you said that this would be very costly.

Should we invest these hundreds of millions of dollars? I think the question is not whether it will cost a lot or cost too much, but whether we can consider that investment as one that will ultimately be beneficial to the public purse.

[Jean-François LaRue]

That is correct.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I don't know if you remember, but in 2007-2008, before the current crisis, if you drove along route 20, you could see big signs stating that 15 plumbers or 3 welders were required as soon as possible.

Do you have any studies showing how much the fact that we were not ready cost Quebec and Canadian society? Do you have anything that allows us to compare our situation to that of the Germans? They were ready, and despite the crisis, they are still running surpluses.

[Jean-François LaRue]

First, I think that what you are describing is not specific to the trades. The availability of labour is an across-the-board issue in society. It is also a matter of demographics. In fact, we see that the birth rate is just not sufficient. That is one of the reasons why there is a somewhat more aggressive immigration policy, one that aims to make us more competitive with other nations, so that we can attract and retain employees from all walks of life and from everywhere.

Moreover, what you have to say is entirely true. We need a proper human resources plan. That is why this government put in place a lot of measures to promote the trades. I am repeating myself to some extent. There are subsidies for apprentices and employers. There are also initiatives to raise awareness.

Rather than making very costly investments in a single area, I prefer to see a series of measures that act in the right places and promote the trades.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

We understand that perspective and we do not want the public treasury to be dilapidated because of a type of dogma. I would like to see a more objective study that could provide us with the following information. If we were to extend loans over a three-year period, for instance, how many people would complete their apprenticeship in a specialized trade, and what would the impact be on certain industries, such as processing industries? What could industries produce thanks to those human resources? Are we talking about hundreds of millions, or billions of dollars? Are we sure those are not the figures we would see if we were to invest over three or four years in people who want to acquire skills?

[Jean-François LaRue]

I think there are many studies that show that not having sufficient human resources will put the brakes on the productivity of businesses, and this will reduce economic growth by several billion dollars.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

This could in fact cause a drop in public revenue.

[Jean-François LaRue]

Yes.

I think that is one of the reasons why the committee is studying this question. It wants to ensure that every possible means is being taken to attract labour, either from abroad or here, and to further skills development in every possible way.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do you think there is a specific study on the decisions that impact the public purse? What would be the impact of extending loans for a period of three or four years? Would this generate 50%, 60% or 80% more for the public purse?

[Jean-François LaRue]

I don't know if such a study exists.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Would it be relevant?

[Jean-François LaRue]

It could be relevant. It would give us a vector. However, we can readily state that we are going to see constraints over time in the area of human resources.

Would the multiplier effect be on the order of four, five, six or seven? We could perhaps have further details in connection with what you are raising.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

That would give us a better idea. We would know whether it would be worthwhile, for instance, to extend financial assistance for three, four or five years, correct?

[Jean-François LaRue]

That would be a valid approach.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Do I have a little time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Yes, go ahead.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I would like to get back to the idea that an economic plan must include a human resources plan. Is there anything that resembles a precise assessment? We are talking about large groups. I worked a great deal with people who were barely literate, could hardly read or write, and so on. We need those human resources.

In certain areas of the country, 15% to 30% of the population barely have basic skills. Is there a national plan, for instance, to reach half of these people and truly integrate them into the labour force? This would require an investment in terms of time.

In addition, this mass of workers would have a considerable impact on the labour market, on the amount of taxes paid, and consequently on the public purse. Even if this plan were to cost half a billion dollars, it would give such a boost to the economic recovery over a 10-year period that it would generate as much as we invested.

[Jean-François LaRue]

That is also the reason why the department expends a lot of effort. I would like to talk about one organization,

the office of literacy and essential skills.

We have a lot of projects, not only involving the trades, but in all sorts of areas, to try to improve literacy and numeracy among the people who must meet these challenges. We want to ensure that these people are more active, more engaged and have more resilience on the labour market.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

We all agree on that. We heard several witnesses.

[Jean-François LaRue]

Yes.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

The work the department is doing is fantastic. We have to see how to determine whether the investment is sufficient or not. That is at the heart of the issue. Why is our productivity inferior to that of Germany and Australia?

[Jean-François LaRue]

Many studies are conducted, either by the department or various research organizations, in connection with what you are raising. I would need a specific aspect in order to be able to answer your question.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Is there a will to carry out comprehensive studies that would allow us to have a real human resources recovery plan? If in 2014, 2015 or 2016 we are no more ready than we were in 2007, we will not be able to compare ourselves to the Germans, who managed to stay well afloat during the crisis, because they were ready in 2007 and 2008. I would not like to see our country again not be ready for a second cycle.