Human Resources Committee on Oct. 16th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Lapointe.

We'll have Mr. LaRue conclude, unless anyone else has a comment.

[Jean-François LaRue]

I think this is a good suggestion. This would be a massive study if you started to do every industry sector.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mayes, did you want to go ahead?

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests for being here today.

I want to follow up on some of the comments that we've had regarding other models: Germany, the U.K., and Australia.

When I was in the grocery business, I used to go over to my competitors and walk around their stores and see what they were doing right, and then I would start implementing that in my store. After a couple of years, they started coming into my store to see what I was doing right. Now, I would think that if you could see the success that they've had in Germany and the U.K., I would be looking at their models. I would have done a study already to find out what works there, and whether it would work here.

The question I'm looking for an answer to, Mr. LaRue, is has the department looked at other models? Has it had the opportunity to look at those models and see why they would or would not work in our labour market, and if not, why?

[Jean-François LaRue]

We constantly look at other international practices in the domain. Certainly through the CCDA a lot of work has been done in terms of learning the best practices of others. You know, there is the reality of Canada and how our education system is structured, of how the current practice—

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

But wouldn't that all be part of the study, saying that it's not just the Government of Canada, that it's also education?

[Jean-François LaRue]

The answer is that I don't have a readily available study on that particular aspect, but that's certainly a worthy suggestion.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Chair, could I ask the analysts to look into the history? I know that committees have studied everything known to man. Is there anything in the past that has been studied with regard to these models—Germany, U.K.—about apprentice training? Could they find out and report back to the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We will have them find out and we will report back to the committee.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to direct my next question to Madam Bertrand.

With regard to wage subsidy, you mentioned that when an apprenticeship gets almost to the end, there is a wage subsidy to get over the top to finish the apprenticeship. I was wondering if you could give us a little more information about how much that is.

Also, our government implemented a tax credit for apprenticeships, but is a wage subsidy also another thing we should be looking at? Maybe the challenge with apprenticeships is that, during their apprenticeship, apprentices are not making enough money to support their families. Maybe they need to look at a wage subsidy.

[Monika Bertrand]

Yes.

Regarding our wage subsidies, under the youth employment strategy we have Canada summer jobs, for example, which is a wage subsidy program. We have career focus, which is an internship wage subsidy program. Under skills link it's the same, the work experience; it's a wage subsidy program.

What is being paid? With regard to career focus, for example, we are talking post-secondary graduate youth, so it's the prevailing wage rate. I would assume it's the minimum wage rate that is being paid under skills link. Of course, leveraging is always encouraged, so that you don't pay necessarily 100%, especially under career focus, when you're talking about post-secondary graduate youth. Under skills link, we cover most of the wage for the youth.

For us, the justification for a wage subsidy, and why we think it's important, is that it's really for the employers. The youth might have a lack of skills but it's giving them a chance. Employers would not necessarily consider giving a young person, especially a young person through skills link who has certain barriers to employment, a chance in the labour market, so a wage subsidy is needed. A wage subsidy is needed to entice an employer to give a youth a chance. Then, of course, the expectation or the hope is that the youth will be kept on or will move on in the labour market to a job with the experience gained.

That is really what the wage subsidy is for, making the youth interesting to the employer.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

One of the other questions I asked—it's over a year ago now—was with regard to apprenticeship and EI. In this grocery store, we used to have apprentices in the bakery department. One of the challenges was that we had to lay them off so they could go down to Vancouver and do their apprenticeship training for a few weeks. They could collect EI, but there was a waiting time of two weeks. By the time the cheque came, it was two weeks. These are people who are living from cheque to cheque.

Has there been any work at all done to try to fix that? I even suggested the last time I brought this up that the employer pay, and then be reimbursed, or something like that, so that there isn't that lapse.

[Jean-François LaRue]

The first thing I would like to say is that employment insurance is, by name, an insurance program. One of the principles of an insurance program is having what you call a deductible. I'm not defending it. I'm explaining how it functions. There was a measure that only one waiting period, if I recall, is served per apprenticeship program, which means that they serve it at the beginning of their program, but as they return to training, return to work and come back, they don't have to serve that waiting period again.

As a matter of fact, yes, your suggestion has been addressed. It's been a couple of years now.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Mayes.

We'll now conclude with Madam Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

In your presentation, you spoke to us about certain challenges. With regard to aboriginal populations, we know that this segment of the population is under-employed, that they are young, and that their numbers are growing rapidly.

In the course of another study, we heard witnesses tell us that there were employment programs and that some employment programs with inadequate budgets were being assessed. Certain programs work well. We also heard about a pilot project involving training in the construction field, and we were told that this was working so well that everyone involved had found work. People were phoning, but there weren't enough workers. The program worked very well, but since it was a pilot project, the federal government subsidy came to an end last year.

Can you tell me whether the department intends to consult the first nations on their needs, for instance, regarding apprenticeship programs? It might be worthwhile to review the budgets in consultation with first nations groups.

[Jean-François LaRue]

Honestly, I must admit that I am not an expert on programs for aboriginals. However, I do know that regular consultations are held with these different groups to identify possible ways of supporting them.

In fact, there are two particular programs that are of interest. They are the Aboriginal Skills and Employment Training Strategy and the Skills and Partnership Fund for Aboriginals.

There is also a project with Saskatchewan that offers persons of aboriginal extraction training and work experience in the trades.

I think it has a budget of $2.4 million over three years, until 2014. That is one example, among others. Your suggestion is a very good one.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

So further consultations could be held with aboriginal groups.

[Jean-François LaRue]

We hold ongoing discussions with aboriginal groups through their program. I am not an expert on the status of those discussions, but that is most certainly one of the aspects that we raise regularly.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

For instance, could the group whose subsidy was eliminated by Human Resources and Skills Development Canada at the end of the pilot project contact you for this type of consultation?

[Jean-François LaRue]

Absolutely. Many people contact us to obtain subsidies under the criteria we have for the programs. We hold discussions with many representatives from various groups. If those people contact us, it will be our pleasure to receive their submissions or to accompany them in a submission process to obtain a subsidy to reach the specific objectives that would fall under the program's criteria.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I don't think that would work in this case since the pilot project is over.

[Jean-François LaRue]

However, there might be what I would call “lessons learned” from that pilot project, and perhaps a new one could be created from the ashes of the old one.

I am not familiar with the project you are referring too, but you seem to be saying a lot of good things about it. So perhaps a project could be created on that basis. The department could certainly study the matter very closely.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You referred several times to challenges involving basic skills. I know that education falls under provincial jurisdiction, but the Skills Link program does a lot of work to further this basic training.

However, the trend recently is to no longer fund projects such as the Wapikoni Mobile or the Ateliers Bon Débarras. In fact, the Ateliers Bon Débarras project unfolded in my riding of Hochelaga. Skills Link has lost its subsidy, and this project really focused on basic skills. It helped people to figure out how to read a schedule, how to work with people. These programs don't lead directly to employment, but they could eventually lead young people toward other training programs.

Indeed, I knew a young woman who went through the Ateliers Bon Débarras program and who afterwards took part in another carpentry apprenticeship program. These things open other doors.

Unfortunately, the trend seems to be to eliminate basic programs like those. In fact, you were yourself talking about literacy earlier. Yet you seem to be going in another direction. I don't understand why.