Human Resources Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Good morning, everyone.

I appreciate having everyone here this morning. I know that some have not arrived yet and they're probably stuck on the bus coming here. I think it's important that we start. We'd like to welcome those who were able to make it.

I might mention that Mr. Ritter from Saskatchewan was not able to make it because of weather, and neither was Mr. Dupuis. We'll try to reschedule them for another day.

We do welcome the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, Sarah Watts-Rynard, executive director; Dan Mills, the chair of the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship; and the chief executive officer of Skills Canada, Shaun Thorson. It's good to see you again.

The process will be a presentation by each of you and then a line of questions alternating between the parties. Of course we're dealing with the study of economic opportunities for young apprentices.

With that, we'll commence with Sarah Watts-Rynard.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard, Executive Director, Canadian Apprenticeship Forum]

Thank you for your invitation to appear today on the subject of economic opportunities for young apprentices. The Canadian Apprenticeship Forum has submitted a brief summarizing its thoughts about how the federal government might contribute to increasing completion and certification among registered apprentices.

The Canadian Apprenticeship Forum, and from here on in I'll refer to us the way the community does, which is by our acronym, CAF, is a national non-profit that looks at apprenticeship and its challenges through a national lens. Though regulated by the jurisdictions, apprenticeship stakeholders assign value to connecting the dots across trades, across sectors, and across Canada.

CAF provides a national voice, influencing apprenticeship strategies through research and collaboration. In addition to research that provides unbiased insights, CAF connects stakeholders to share promising practices and promotes apprenticeship as a valued post-secondary pathway.

In March 2013, our federal funding to continue this work will come to an end and this represents a significant challenge. While apprenticeship training is the primary responsibility of the provinces and territories, I believe there's a significant role to play at the national level.

Among the subjects of your current study, I am going to concentrate my remarks on improving completion rates, increasing the visibility and appeal of existing apprenticeship programs, and increasing recognition of apprenticeship programs between the jurisdictions.

When it comes to completion rates, there are a few important things to understand. Completers are most likely to have worked for only one employer and to have had a journeyperson continuously present during their training. This reflects an employer commitment that must be fostered, encouraged, and rewarded. There is a requirement for ongoing outreach to share the business case for apprenticeship training, and CAF research has established that business case. There are also opportunities at the procurement level to support trades-training among skilled trades contractors.

Older apprentices are less likely to complete, and we see discontinuation rates increase after the age of 28. This is problematic, since the average age of a newly registering apprentice is in the mid-twenties. This makes attracting people to the trades at a younger age critical.

Apprentices who have completed high school are more likely to complete their apprenticeship, so engaging them and keeping hands-on learners in high school is also important.

Roughly one-half of all apprentices work for firms with fewer than 20 employees. That rises to about 77% when you include firms with up to 99 employees. Those who work for medium-size firms have the best chances of completing. This speaks to the need to support small businesses that hire and train apprentices.

In terms of visibility, you may be aware of a national media campaign undertaken collaboratively by the Canadian Apprenticeship Forum and Skills Canada in the mid-2000s. The Skilled Trades: A Career You Can Build On campaign developed a website, advertising, and resources for youth, parents, and educators. Today, that website receives more than 14,000 hits every month. Every year hundreds of schools across Canada request pamphlets, posters, and apprenticeship guides for their guidance departments. This speaks to an insatiable demand for information about skilled trades careers.

Earlier this month we relaunched the Careers in Trades website with updated content, a new design, and increased interactivity. The response has been overwhelmingly positive. Reaching out to youth with any degree of success requires relevant interactive content, and a modern look and feel. There is still substantial work to be done to engage youth and arm youth influencers—the parents and the educators—with good career information about the trades.

When it comes to increasing recognition of apprenticeship programs, this is firmly in the hands of the jurisdictions. Federally, however, labour mobility refers right now to the recognition of qualifications, and apprentices lack credentials. The portability of their hours and their technical training levels is important if we want to keep them engaged and move them toward certification.

Today’s reality in the skilled trades is that workers are losing their positions in some parts of the country, while other regions are experiencing intense demand.

At a national level there's value in capturing how the jurisdictions, unions, employers, and educational institutions are dealing with prior learning assessment as apprentices move through their training. There are certainly regional solutions, but apprentices, employers, and other stakeholders stand to benefit from understanding the processes that the jurisdictions undertake and the best practices that are under way.

CAF has outlined five recommendations in its brief to the committee, many of which I've touched on here. In order to keep within my time, I'm going to end here. I welcome any questions from members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that insightful presentation. I appreciate that very much. Now we'll hear from Mr. Mills.

[Dan Mills, Chair, The Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

I'm here in my capacity today as chair of the CCDA, which is the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship. In my day job I'm also the director of apprenticeship and occupational certification in the Province of New Brunswick. Thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to speak about the CCDA and the provincial and territorial apprenticeship systems in Canada.

I'd like to add that while I'm here as the chair of CCDA, I do not speak for individual jurisdictions.

The CCDA sees great value in the committee's study on economic opportunities for young apprentices. Apprenticeship is a proven means to develop a mobile and highly skilled workforce. It leads to good, in-demand jobs and contributes to Canada's productivity and competitiveness.

The CCDA is responsible for the management and delivery of the interprovincial standards program, also known as the Red Seal program. I left a pin with the Red Seal logo in front of each of you so you'll see what it looks like. Through the Red Seal program interprovincial standard exams are developed and maintained for what are today 55 Red Seal trades, standards known as national occupational analyses, or NOAs. I've left a copy of an NOA with the clerk for your information, in both English and French. They describe what skilled workers must know and be able to do to be competent in a Red Seal trade. The CCDA collaborates with industry to facilitate the development of a skilled trades labour force and the mobility of this labour force in Canada. The development of common interprovincial competency standards promotes greater harmonization of provincial and territorial apprenticeship training and certification programs.

CCDA is comprised of all provincial and territorial apprenticeship authorities, as well as representatives from Human Resources and Skills Development, or HRSDC. The role of HRSDC includes providing secretariat research and strategic support to the CCDA. It also coordinates the development of Red Seal standards, exams, and curriculum guides. I've left a sample of an interprovincial program guide with the clerk as well, in French and English, for your information.

Each year, national occupational analyses for about a dozen trades are updated or developed. In addition, about 40 new exams are developed and released each year. A rigorous process is followed to develop these products, in close collaboration with industry. Red Seal standards and resource materials such as interprovincial curriculum guides, Red Seal examination preparation material and essential skills resources are available on the Red Seal Web site, www.red-seal.ca.

The CCDA is in an effective intergovernmental voluntary partnership and is a collegial forum for effective collaboration and exchange on issues relating to the Red Seal and apprenticeship in general. As an organization the CCDA does not have regulatory powers regarding training and certification in the skilled trades; however, the individual directors of apprenticeship and their organizations hold that authority through various provincial and territorial legislation.

Through the Red Seal program, CCDA has supported labour mobility and a high standard of qualification in the skilled trades for over half a century, starting in 1952. Decades before the Agreement on Internal Trade, AIT, governments met with the aim to promote labour mobility through developing interprovincial industry-certified standards for workers in the skilled trades. The first Red Seal in Canada was actually issued in New Brunswick in 1959 for motor vehicle repair. Since that time, over half a million Red Seal endorsements have been awarded, and over 25,000 qualified tradespersons receive the Red Seal endorsement every year.

On average, around 47,000 Red Seal exams are written annually, both by completing apprentices and those who have experience in a trade and meet the eligibility requirements, what we call trade qualifiers. These are folks who work in industry but never completed an apprenticeship program but have the time and experience to challenge the exam. They would include foreign-trained workers.

The amended labour mobility chapter of the AIT provided the CCDA with an opportunity to consider the Red Seal program in a new and broader context. Under chapter 7, provinces and territories must now recognize each other's trade certificates with or without red seal. To give you an illustration of that, here is a certificate of qualification from New Brunswick. You can see the Red Seal, which looks very similar to the pin I gave you. That would be a Red Seal version. This would be the exact same thing, but there's no Red Seal. The point there is that with the AIT, everyone will recognize this, but there is still the option to have one with a Red Seal on it. I'll leave these with the clerk for your information. They're in both languages.

Trade certificates bearing the Red Seal are automatically recognized, typically both with governments and employers. Chapter 7 recognized the Red Seal program as a well-established means of developing common standards for the trades. While no longer the sole guarantor of mobility in Canada, the Red Seal endorsement is considered a prestigious credential and an industry-endorsed standard of excellence for the skilled trades. Many employers will ask for the Red Seal endorsement because industry recognizes and trusts that tradespersons are qualified to a high interprovincial standard.

Other advantages of achieving Red Seal endorsement include enhanced employability and improved chances of advancement. There are a variety of examples of Red Seal tradespeople who've gone on to become leaders, provincially, territorially, and nationally.

CCDA is committed to ensuring that the Red Seal program continues to be responsive to labour market needs. Over the past three years, CCDA has been engaged in the strengthening the Red Seal initiative. Supporting the Red Seal exam, the initiative is designed to enhance skills assessment through the exploration of an enhanced standards model and multiple forms of assessment. Right now everyone in Canada writes a version of the same multiple choice Red Seal exam if they have achieved a certificate with one of those red seals on it.

Multiple assessment methods may be particularly beneficial to domestic or foreign-trained tradespeople, who did not go through a formal apprenticeship program or for whom a written exam may present a challenge unrelated to their competency. Between 2009 and 2011, CCDA gathered information to inform the strengthening of the Red Seal initiative through national in-person consultation sessions and engaged over 300 stakeholders. There was also an online survey that focused on exploring additional forms of assessment, such as practical tests, portfolio reviews, and competency conversations. Over 1,300 stakeholders responded to that survey. CCDA also tested the concept of multiple assessments through pilot projects in four provinces in two Red Seal trades—cook and heavy-duty equipment technician.

Based on the results of these consultations and pilots, CCDA is now conducting research to help identify an optimal format and development process for enhanced national standards for the Red Seal program. This would support the development of multiple ways of assessing candidates. The enhanced standard would still rely heavily on industry input. In order to determine next steps for this initiative, CCDA is conducting a cost analysis that will help determine the feasibility of adopting multiple assessments in the provinces and territories. The results are expected in the winter of 2013.

The CCDA works in close collaboration with HRSDC to identify and address the information and research needed to strengthen the Red Seal program and inform decision making. For example, through the CCDA’s research committee, HRSDC has worked with Statistics Canada to help develop survey content on youth perceptions, awareness and exposure as regards the skilled trades, using the 2012 Programme for International Student Assessment, or PISA. PISA is an international survey that collects direct measures of student ability.

Results of the 2012 PISA will be released by Statistics Canada in late 2013. This initiative will contribute to CCDA’s research on youth apprenticeship and entry level issues.

The CCDA and HRSDC recently completed a comprehensive research initiative based on the 2007 National Apprenticeship Survey, which collected detailed information on the experiences of apprentices before, during and after their training. One of the findings of the research was that, while there is a moderate level of awareness of apprenticeship in high school, with six out of ten respondents being aware of apprenticeship, it is often not a first career choice.

Apprenticeships in the Red Seal program are industry-driven. Stakeholder involvement is crucial to realizing the vision of the Red Seal program as a program of choice based on the value it represents to industry, apprentices, and participating jurisdictions. CCDA has increased its emphasis on stakeholder engagement. Annual round table meetings with national apprenticeship stakeholders have been held to seek input on strategic directions for the program, and to provide updates on key initiatives such as strengthening the Red Seal and essential skills.

CCDA recently approved its new strategic directions for 2013 to 2016. These will be available on the Red Seal website once the performance measurement strategy is completed. Each of our four strategic priorities will be supported by a few selected initiatives. I'll take this opportunity to give you a brief outline for the next few years. Given the context of the evolving labour market, fiscal pressures on governments, and some of the persistent challenges to apprenticeship systems, CCDA has agreed to focus on the following four priorities: first, standards and assessments; second, harmonization; third, promotion; and finally, engagement.

On the first one, standards and assessments, work will continue on our strengthening the Red Seal initiative to develop and implement enhanced standards and explore multiple assessment approaches. That's really the bread and butter of the CCDA. I mentioned I had left copies of the national occupation analyses, interprovincial program guides, and the Red Seal exam. Those are the products we talk about, in terms of keeping those going and making them the best they can be.

The second one is harmonization. You can imagine, with 13 provinces and territories, we tend to each have our own turf and we say, “This is what we do in New Brunswick” and “This is what we do in B.C.” We're certainly looking at initiatives, including developing more common and streamlined approaches across jurisdictions for the recognition of qualifications of foreign-trained workers, exploring opportunities for greater harmonization of training, and certification requirements for skilled trades.

The next one is promotion and the creation and implementation of a new branding strategy for the Red Seal program. We'll address the need for greater awareness—and we may have a new pin for you next year—as a competitive advantage and assurance of quality.

Under engagement, the CCDA will continue to build on a constructive dialogue with national industry workers and employers through increased engagement of stakeholders in the Red Seal program. These efforts will build on the work that the CCDA and jurisdictions do on a day-to-day basis.

On behalf of the CCDA, we hope this committee's report will recommend ongoing support for the implementation of the CCDA's strategic priorities, available on our website.

Let me conclude by thanking you again for the opportunity to contribute to your study. The CCDA will continue to work to support the Red Seal program so that it remains responsive to labour market needs. The CCDA will also continue to provide a forum for interjurisdictional collaboration to facilitate the development of a certified, highly skilled and mobile trades workforce in Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

I note that you have indicated you have interprovincial standards and exams developed for 55 Red Seals. We've heard very positive testimony in the past on other areas we were studying with respect to the Red Seal program. I know one of the witnesses specifically said we should be expanding the Red Seal program, and to whom it might apply. This is definitely a great program and a good leveller between provinces and the territories. As you say, each has its own turf, but we need to be sure that doesn't interfere with interprovincial mobility.

The next presenter will be Shaun Thorson. I did have the privilege of being in Calgary at one point watching your competitions, and certainly they garnered a lot of interest. I was very much impressed with what you do. It's a great way to bring people to the point of interest, in terms of the trades.

Go ahead, Mr. Thorson.

[Shaun Thorson, Chief Executive Officer, Skills Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to be here. Thank you to the committee for the invitation to speak about this important issue.

I will begin by giving you a bit of background on our organization. Skills/Compétences Canada is a national organization that started operations in 1998. We currently have offices in all 10 provinces and three territories. We are managed under a federated model, so those provincial and territorial offices are separate entities and are members of the national organization. We're governed by a voluntary board of directors, composed of representatives from each province and territory. We are also Canada's member organization in WorldSkills International.

Our mission is to encourage and support a coordinated Canadian approach to promote skilled trades and technologies to youth. We do that by working with various partners at different levels, government, business, labour, and education, to really bring together the insights and the valuable ideas from those groups to develop programs that are effective in promoting trades and technology careers.

We really try to engage youth through sensory, interactive experiences that profile trades and technologies. That is the cornerstone of our activities. We always want there to be something very interactive and very hands-on as part of those activities. Some of them include skills clubs and skills camps, where we are bringing in people who are working in those occupations not only to talk about those careers but also to provide some hands-on activities for young people to participate in: cardboard boat races, young women's conferences, and Skills Canada competitions at a provincial and territorial, national, and international level. Again, it's a very hands-on, practical, sensory experience. We have Try-A-Trade and technology activities, which I will touch on a little more.

Industry sectors that we represent include construction, information communication technology, manufacturing, service, and transportation. Looking at our competition format, which is probably a unique activity in the country, we have approximately 150,000 youth who participate in our competition process on an annual basis beginning at a school level. We have school board competitions, regional competitions, moving into provincial and territorial competitions, and culminating each year with approximately 500 youth from across the country participating in approximately 40 different trade and technology areas, ranging from what would be considered traditional trades, such as, plumbers, electricians, and welders, and moving into information technology, IT network support, web design, hospitality, cooking, baking, restaurant service, manufacturing, and CNC machining. There's a broad range of categories that provide a great offering for those students who are participating.

At the national level, we have between 10,000 and 15,000 visitors at the competition each year. That is extremely important because the competitions are not only there to develop interest for those youth who are participating, but also for those visiting schools that attend. We have developed what we call the Try-A-Trade and technology activities, which give visiting students an opportunity to try an occupation at a very base level. Again, we give them that sensory experience so they can try to build a brick wall, wire a circuit board, or colour someone's hair. It gives them a better appreciation of what it would be like at a very base level to look at that occupation for the future.

I'll go through some interesting things from the 2007 National Apprenticeship Survey. Some have already been mentioned, but the average age of entrance into the apprenticeship system was approximately 25. There is definitely a gap between people leaving high school before they enter into apprenticeship. The median age of discontinuers was three years older than that of completers. We could surmise that if we get students interested at a younger age, there may be a higher probability they would complete their apprenticeship.

Contact with people exposed to the trade was the most common factor that influenced apprentices' interest in their trade. Half of each apprenticeship group reported that family members, friends in the trade, teachers, counsellors, employers, co-workers, union representatives, or any other tradespeople influenced their interest in a trade.

Obviously, it's extremely important that students be made aware of the opportunities in skilled trades and have a chance to talk to tradespeople and find out what they do on a day-to-day basis.

The three most commonly cited factors influencing registration in trades were interest in and enjoyment of the trade, good salary expectations, and job stability or security. Again, I think it's important that we really try to show young people that there are pathways for them and if they have legitimate interest and are excited about a specific occupation and trade, that we encourage that and not discourage that.

Also, Sarah had mentioned the marketing promotions campaign that CAF and Skills Canada had offered in the mid-2000s. I offer some interesting statistics from that. They're a little dated. In an Ipsos Reid study from 2004-05, 69% of parents with children ages 13 to 24 say they would be likely to recommend careers in skilled trades to their children, yet only 28% of youth say their parents have encouraged them to pursue this option. Obviously, there is some disconnect there either in the questions or in how that information from parents is being communicated to youth.

Also from that study, only 14% of youth indicated that their guidance counsellors had recommended this career option. Again, if we are trying to make sure that young people are aware of all the options and we believe that if they start at an earlier age they may be more likely to pursue the career and complete the career, then we should be trying to make sure that information is provided through the school system.

Looking at the challenge that we face, and this is some information from the Construction Sector Council, commercial and institutional construction will record strong gains spread evenly across the 2012 to 2020 scenario. Mining, oil and gas, electricity, and transportation projects are creating high-profile labour demands. These demands will add an estimated 100,000 jobs, but this is far less than the replacement demands tied to retirements, which is approximately 219,000. Obviously, there is a great challenge in front of us.

Also from a 2012 ManpowerGroup talent shortage report, globally one in three employers, 34%, continue to experience difficulties filling vacancies due to lack of available talent. In Canada this number was slightly lower, at about 25%. At a global level, vacancies for skilled trades workers topped the list of the most difficult positions to fill again in 2012. Again, this is part of the challenge.

We have an aging demographic in Canada that is resulting in many job vacancies. We have a country that is rich in natural resources that are in demand globally. Skilled trades and technology workers are required in order for these industries to perform.

I'll quickly list recommendations:

More interactive sensory experience programming should be offered in grades seven, eight, and nine as an introduction to skilled trades careers, maintaining an emphasis on students at the high school level.

We should demonstrate to youth how technology is changing the type of work in traditional trades, making it much more focused on digital skills. Technology is making a significant impact, and there are many examples of how that's changing how tradespeople work.

We should develop mobile training facilities that can be used in remote locations to provide an introduction to these careers so that we can bring more base-level learning of those occupations to those remote communities as opposed to asking them to come to where the training is.

We should develop career pathways that link multiple levels of education to training to make it easier for students so they do not have to make one choice at a high school age and then have no opportunity to move in another direction if they decide that first choice is not the right choice for them.

Through outreach to employers, we should demonstrate to them the business case of why employing apprentices is beneficial. I think CAF has developed some great materials in their return on training investment studies to do that. We need to continue to emphasize that with employers.

We need to continue to emphasize worker mobility through Red Seal certification and through the recognition in multiple jurisdictions of apprenticeship training. This means making sure that apprenticeship training that is achieved in one jurisdiction is also recognized if someone moves to another jurisdiction.

We should implement a youth-focused advertising campaign focused on events and activities throughout the country that connect youth to people employed in these occupations, and provide them with a chance to try these occupations at an introductory level.

Also, we should analyze the policy implications of apprenticeship on the job and in-school training taking place concurrently. This might have already been done, but I'm not aware of it.

That concludes my comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for raising a lot of interesting points in your presentation.

We'll now start with Madame Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

My first question is for Ms. Watts-Rynard.

You touched on the fact that your funding would come to an end soon, in 2014, but you didn't elaborate. Would you mind giving us more details please?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

The Canadian Apprenticeship Forum was funded through the federal sector council program, which is being wound down as of the end of this fiscal year, March 2013. We'll lose our operational funding at that time.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Have you made any provisions to replace that funding?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

We've asked apprenticeship stakeholders across the country, and that includes the jurisdictions, employers, educational institutions, unions, equity representatives and organizations, to help us continue, by providing membership dollars. It's a significant challenge for us because we're just now building that. We were given 22 months to come up with a solution.

We do plan on continuing, but it does represent a challenge to the kind of work we've been doing.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

So you will be spending a great deal of time on the hunt for funding.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Yes. That's true.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You also talked about the student completion rate. The more education young people have, the higher the rate. I imagine that building skills and human resources is crucial, and that providing these programs is crucial to apprentices completing their training.

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

Yes.

Apprentices tend to complete their apprenticeship when they've completed high school, so we have to continue to engage hands-on learners. In many cases, entry into an apprenticeship requires a grade 12 education. That hasn't been the case in every trade in every jurisdiction.

We do see that the tendency to complete is higher among those who have completed high school. Through their apprenticeship, they spend 80% to 85% of their time in the workplace with a journeyperson who is overseeing their training on the job. They spend another 15% to 20% of their time in an educational institution, usually a college or a union training centre, where they have theoretical and technical training.

It's trying to ensure that they get from the beginning of an apprenticeship all the way to the end. There are some barriers that they face in the four years.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Some young people who have not completed high school do, however, participate in programs. In my riding, for instance, we have a social reintegration program for high-school dropouts who don't have jobs. It's called Ateliers Bon Débarras. It really teaches basic skills.

Have you seen an impact from these types of programs on apprenticeship completion?

[Sarah Watts-Rynard]

I wouldn't be able to point to a study or research that would validate that. We do see that employers prefer to hire a new apprentice when they have had some kind of pre-employment or pre-apprenticeship program. There is some degree of understanding that the apprentice has already made a commitment to that trade.

The other point is around essential skills. We see that some of those pre-employment programs deal with some essential skills issues that improve their chances of success, especially in the technical training portion where there are assignments and tests that they have to go undergo.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

That is what I thought. Thank you.

Mr. Mills, I was intrigued when you mentioned the Programme for International Student Assessment. How will its international perspective promote apprenticeship in Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Madame Boutin-Sweet. Your time is up. But go ahead and conclude with the answer.

[Dan Mills]

We mentioned the study simply because it shows where things stand here, in Canada, even though its scope is international.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Are you saying that Canadian students will be surveyed?

[Dan Mills]

Yes.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Very well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll move to Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses as well. I appreciate the work you do in your individual fields.

I'm a little confused. Mr. Mills, you talked about trade qualifiers. What it shows me is that approximately 50% of students basically complete the Red Seal program. You said that out of 47,000 individuals, 25,000 actually complete the Red Seal program. It is my understanding that Red Seal holders have more chances of employment. It seems that there is a shortage of skilled workers, especially within the Red Seals.

Why do the students who start this not complete the Red Seal program? Are there any deficiencies in the availability of apprenticeships with employers? We, as a government, this government specifically, encourage students to complete their apprenticeships. We have come up with program incentives to give them thousands of dollars, which should encourage them to complete. This government has also come up with tax credits for the employers, which basically assists students in completing apprenticeships.

Where is the gap? I want to figure that out.