Human Resources Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2012

[Dan Mills]

I'll make a couple of comments to respond to that.

I gave you the total number of Red Seal exam writings.

You really need to think of two groups. There is a group of people who become apprentices. They follow a formal apprenticeship program, and hopefully they complete it. But the numbers are that about 50% complete it. If you complete a formal apprenticeship program, you get a diploma of apprenticeship, similar to what I showed you earlier. You may have a diploma of apprenticeship with the Red Seal or without the Red Seal.

Upon completion of an apprenticeship program, you'll also get that certificate of qualification. If you're an apprentice, you'll get both a diploma of apprenticeship and a certificate of qualification. If you're not an apprentice, and you go to work in industry, you will get only that certificate of qualification. You won't get the diploma of apprenticeship.

That 47,000 individuals at the Red Seal exam writings are a combination of apprentices who have followed a program and people who have come from industry and want to challenge the final exam.

Our experience across Canada is that around 80% of apprentices, I think, will pass that Red Seal exam on the first try. They have followed a program. They have been to training. They possibly have had a progress record book. They will complete. But of the folks who come from industry and have never been apprentices, 50% fail the exam on the first try. That's why you're seeing that big gap between the number of writings versus the number of people who get Red Seal. It's not necessarily apprentices. It's more the people who were never apprentices. They have worked in industry.

To give you a practical example, in most provinces, except maybe Quebec, you can go to work and call yourself a carpenter. I can slap a “Joe's Carpentry” sign on the side of my truck, and I can go to work as a carpenter. I can do that for 20 years. I may have never been an apprentice, never been certified, and never gone to school, but I can call myself a carpenter. Then if I want to, and I've had enough time in the trade, I can write the exam. Half of those people are going to fail the exam. We attribute that to their not having followed an apprenticeship program. They haven't followed a structure. They haven't gotten all the training. They haven't covered the full scope of the trade. Therefore, they fail the exam.

That's the distinction between apprentices and trade qualifiers, and that's why you're seeing such a big gap.

There is a challenge, as well, in terms of ensuring that apprentices complete. Both Shaun and Sarah alluded to that. Not all of our apprentices are completing. They start but they don't finish. I would say that it's a similar challenge in that not all people who start university finish university. Not all people who start college finish college. Not all people who want to be nurses become nurses. There are the same types of challenges, career changes, life changes, or perspective changes. Whatever happens, there's a challenge.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I agree. One of my nephews actually completed the machinist program from BCIT, in Vancouver, but for some reason he's changing his mind now even though he's in the process. He has completed one year of apprenticeship, so maybe it's the culture in student life. But—

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

It will have to be a short question.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Okay. It's a jurisdictional issue as well. As the federal government, we believe the private sector should be part and parcel of all these encouragements. As the federal government, what do we do to encourage the private sector to get on board?

[Dan Mills]

There are some existing federal programs. One is the federal tax credit for apprenticeships. There's a tax credit of up to $2,000 for employers who hire apprentices. One of the things we often talk about is there are grants to encourage apprentices to complete, and you've probably heard of those. It's $1,000 after the first level, second level, and then $2,000 when they finish, for a total of $4,000. We don't necessarily have a similar program for employers.

What employers tell us is that although there is a tax credit, depending on the size of the company—and Sarah, I think, mentioned small and medium-size employers are more likely to complete apprentices—it's not as easy. What we're hearing is that the larger employers will take advantage of that tax credit. They have an accountant, HR staff, a payroll division to look after that sort of thing, but a smaller employer may not be as likely to fill out the form. As well, it's a credit, not a grant, so there may be challenges around that.

One idea to encourage employers to complete apprentices may be to provide some sort of grant directly to employers who are helping to complete apprentices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Mr. Cleary.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to the witnesses.

Mr. Thorson, I have a question for you. You mentioned that the average age of entrance to skilled trades, I believe, is 25. Is that correct?

[Shaun Thorson]

That's from the 2007 apprenticeship study, yes.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Is that because skilled trades are a second-choice career?

[Shaun Thorson]

I think it is because young people in high school and even at a younger age, junior high, are not fully aware of the occupations and the career pathways connected to skilled trades.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Is that because they go to university or some form of post-secondary education, they give that a try and it's not for them, and then at the age of 25 they try skilled trades?

[Shaun Thorson]

From a high school level, a number of students are entering directly into the workforce. They decide that they do not want to be engaged in any level of post-secondary education and they enter the workforce, and after some period of time they determine that maybe a trade is an option for them.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It is a second-choice career. Is that basically why the average age is 25?

[Shaun Thorson]

I don't think it's a second-choice career. I think the options for those careers have not been made available to young people at the high school level in an appropriate way. There has definitely been an emphasis—and we're battling this societal view—that university is where we want to push our young people. I think we need to bring back some balance to that formula.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

One of your first recommendations had to do with grades 7, 8, and 9. Is there an emphasis of skilled trades in those grades?

[Shaun Thorson]

There is not an emphasis of skilled trades in those grades. That is one of the areas we could focus on because young people in grades 7, 8, and 9 are starting to think about careers. I think we need to present some activities for them, very hands on, that get them thinking about working with their hands and developing some knowledge of what's involved in those skilled trade areas.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Okay, there are two points I want to bring up.

First, I was at a high school graduation ceremony in my riding last week. In a high school of about 500 students, there were 75 graduates. I watched each one come up and receive their diploma. It was mentioned what they were doing, engineering, university, college, whatever. Of the 75, I counted 4 who wanted to do skilled trades. That's one thing I want to highlight.

Second, I have a son who is 17. I have mentioned him before at this committee. He will graduate in June. Now, he wants to be a professional hockey player. I hope he does become one because that would basically be my pension plan. However, in terms of his mother and I and the direction we're pushing him in, and you hit on this a moment ago, we're pushing him in the direction of university, to become all that he can be.

I just asked you a question about your recommendation about grades 7, 8, and 9, but it seems to me that the people you have to work on aren't just the students. The people you have to work on are the parents, because that's where the negative stereotype, if I can call it that, would come from. I say this with the greatest respect. I would rather my kid be a professional than a plumber, for example. How do you combat that?

[Shaun Thorson]

Yes, I agree that there absolutely needs to be emphasis placed on parents and guidance counsellors. We need to try to connect with parent associations.

We need to demonstrate a couple of things.

One, we need to have all Canadians understand that when we have a diminished skilled labour force, it will impact everyone. It will impact not only Canadians who work within a particular sector; it will impact everyone. That lends to the argument that we should be encouraging young people to look at these careers.

Two, we need to demonstrate, or do a better job of demonstrating, that these are very valuable careers, that they are contributors to the economics of the country, that people are valuable citizens if they pursue these careers. We need to start to talk about the salaries and some of the compensation benefits that people can receive if they pursue these occupations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up, Mr. Cleary.

Yes, it's interesting to learn that the percentage of students who have indicated that guidance counsellors have suggested the trades is very small. As I recall, I think it's 14% or 15%.

I wonder if the guidance counsellors themselves have little appreciation of the trades, or have not been involved hands on in one fashion or another, and consequently are not doing what might be done to encourage students to go in that direction. Fourteen per cent, which one of you gave with regard to the survey, is very low.

[Shaun Thorson]

I agree 100% with that. There definitely needs to be some continued outreach to guidance counsellors and to teachers who are not working specifically in those sectors of study, that these are valuable careers, that, as I said, they are contributors to society, and that university is great for some students, college is great for some students, and apprenticeship is great for some students.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

It's not only parents, but perhaps guidance counsellors as well. It's just the whole continuum there.

Mr. Butt, go ahead.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all three of you for being here. I've found this to be quite interesting.

This is an area that needs some attention, there's no two ways about it. I think we've done a fair bit, but there's more that we can do. Your input is very valuable in helping the committee.

I was actually on the telephone yesterday with a representative of the IBEW, the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, about an apprentice situation with a constituent. The mother had called me because the son was finding it very difficult. He had completed all of the community college programming to be an apprentice as an electrician, but then he was having a difficulty with a placement. We were discussing why that was.

I am a member of Parliament from Mississauga, so this was the greater Toronto area. I was surprised to hear that there was a difficulty, because I keep hearing there's this skills shortage and people are needed. Then this mother calls me and she's very frustrated because her son is not getting an apprenticeship placement.

Is there that disconnect, or is that just a Toronto area thing, from your perspective and from what you know about? Is this a common theme across the country, where we are actually getting people to become, and want to become, apprentices, but there aren't the placements?

I actually had an excellent conversation with this guy in Toronto. The input and stuff was very helpful to me and to my constituent. However, I found that to be very weird, when I got that phone call, that there was no placement for this young person, a 24-year-old guy who had completed everything and was being told there was no room.

Is that a common problem, that we actually have more people who want to practise as apprentices than we actually have placements for? Is this a national issue, or is this just an issue in Toronto?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mills, and then perhaps others, if they wish.

[Dan Mills]

I'll give you two comments on that.

This is a bit of my New Brunswick perspective, but one thing we're finding is that people are quite interested in what I call the popular trades. If I ask the group here to name five trades, my guess is you'll tell me carpenter, plumber, electrician, and you might get to car mechanic, or something like that, and you might come up with a fifth one. You'll probably get three or four, for sure. In society it's the same way.

Kids, parents, schools are all saying to go into a trade, and there are four trades, when in fact there are 55 Red Seal trades and then there are 200 different trades across the country when you look at all the different provinces and territories.

My first comment would be that maybe the demand is not for electricians; maybe it's for instrumentation technicians, ironworkers, bricklayers, insulators, or welders. There is a whole range of other trades that people aren't necessarily familiar with.

My second comment would be that it may be there is a demand but we can't match the apprentice with the job. There is a need right across the country to come up with a better way of doing it.

Right now there is an option in Ontario, called apprenticesearch.com, a website that's trying to connect apprentices with employers and vice versa. Apprentices can post that they're available and post their resumé and that sort of thing. Employers can go to the website and look for people and post opportunities at the same time.

There are two pieces. One, it may have been that there is not demand in those top three or four trades, that it's in the other 50. Two, it may be that we're having a hard time connecting the opportunity with the apprentice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Does anyone else wish to make a comment?