Human Resources Committee on Oct. 20th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I'll call the meeting to order.

We have a number of new participants with us today. I'd like to say that we'll be doing two panels of three witnesses each today. The first panel will be with us for one hour. Representatives from the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants, the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada, and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters will be making presentations.

Each of you will make a presentation, and then we will have some questioning rounds from parties in the committee. I ask that as you make your presentations you speak slowly. The interpreters need to interpret, and at times that gets a little difficult. So keep that in mind as you're presenting. I'll indicate when you're coming near the end of your time.

With that, Ms. Thompson, could you start?

[Doretta Thompson, Principal, Education and Communications, Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Doretta Thompson. I'm a principal in education strategy and communication with the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. Over the last two years, I've been the CICA's liaison with HRSDC on our international credential recognition initiatives. With me is Jylan Khalil, the CICA's director of qualification. Jylan is an expert in the assessment of international qualification processes and the negotiation of mutual recognition agreements. We appreciate the opportunity to share with you our ongoing initiatives, made possible through HRSDC's foreign credential recognition program, to improve the labour market outcomes of foreign-trained individuals.

The CA profession is regulated at the provincial level. Our provincial institutes have the constitutional responsibility for qualification and admission to the profession, including the admission of internationally trained professionals. The CICA's role is to work closely with the provincial institutes, through inter-institute committees, to set national standards, which all CAs must meet. Consequently, CAs have full mobility across Canada. And all our international credential recognition initiatives are being developed within this framework and require full provincial support.

Like most professions, ours faces an imminent demographic challenge. The demand for CAs is expected to grow, just as a significant portion of our membership begins to retire. Internationally trained accountants will be an important source of new CAs, and many will need to upgrade their education or experience.

Our goal, consistent with that of the pan-Canadian framework, is to ensure that internationally trained accountants have access to timely, fair, and transparent assessment processes that give full credit for the knowledge and experience they bring to Canada; to guarantee timely assessment of their credentials; and to offer accessible, affordable, focused bridging programs that will enable them to meet Canadian standards more quickly than is possible today.

As pointed out by HRSDC in its recent testimony, the process for recognizing credentials is complex, costly, and lengthy.

We received our first grant from HRSDC's FCR program in September 2009. With it, we created a pan-Canadian web portal to provide internationally trained accountants with clear information on the requirements for becoming a CA in Canada. When we began this initiative, each provincial institute had its own application and assessment process, and the information available varied significantly from province to province, creating confusion among potential applicants both in Canada and abroad.

This grant enabled us to conduct focus groups to better understand the information needs of internationally trained accountants who had become Canadian CAs; to create an interprovincial team to produce a harmonized online application process; and to create a web portal that's easy for applicants to use, provides answers to the most commonly asked questions, and provides information for employers of internationally trained accountants.

While the launch of our “Become a CA in Canada” website will happen next month, the soft launch early this summer is already resulting in a smoother application process for internationally trained accountants, and reduced calls, letters, and e-mails to the CICA and to the provincial institutes. The site has already had almost 9,000 different visitors. About half are from other countries, the top three being India, Pakistan, and the U.S. And completed applications are beginning to come in. We're pleased to provide committee members with screen shots of two introductory pages of the website. To see the full site, you can visit www.becomeacaincanada.ca, or www.devenircaaucanada.ca.

[Jylan Khalil, Director, Chartered Accountants Qualification, Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants]

The website captures current processes and streamlines the application process, but it will also provide the launch point for four exciting new initiatives. Over the next three years, federal funding will enable us to create a sophisticated assessment tool and three bridging programs to help internationally trained accountants qualify as Canadian CAs. Many of them will be able to begin the process before they even arrive in Canada.

The first initiative is a CA qualification assessment tool. This is a computer-based tool that assesses the credentials, designation, relevant professional development, and work experience of an internationally trained accountant against the CA profession's qualification requirements. The unique feature of this tool is that it will award academic credit for experiential learning. Applicants will receive a detailed report identifying the specific requirements they lack, and information on how these gaps can be bridged. It will outline the minimum necessary and sufficient bridging programs required for CA qualification. This important tool is scheduled for completion in 2014.

The second initiative is the CA reciprocity education program that will replace the current examination with online courses. This program targets members of the 14 international accounting bodies with whom we have mutual recognition agreements, MRAs. Currently these accountants are eligible to become CAs by passing examinations in Canadian tax, law, and in CA ethics. Each year, approximately 150 people take this exam. Preliminary research indicates that there are many more people eligible.

We believe that online courses, which can be taken at any time and from anywhere in the world, will be a more attractive option. Other international bodies with whom we have MRAs are also replacing their equivalent exams with such courses, and we expect this program to be mutually agreed upon as part of the 2012 MRA renewal process. The examination would be maintained for those seeking a licence to practice public accounting. Development of this program is now under way, with a pilot project planned for November 2012 and program launch in March 2013.

The third initiative is the CA executive professional program that will prepare internationally trained accountants with seven or more years of experience to write our uniform evaluation. This eight-month, executive-style, part-time program will cover the professional qualities and skills of our competency map. Currently these experienced professionals must complete a domestic education program, a process that can take up to two or more years. Preliminary research with employers indicates significant interest in this program for internationally trained staff. We expect to pilot this project in September 2013 and launch it in September 2014.

Our final initiative is an evaluation of experience targeted at very senior internationally trained accountants with twelve or more years of experience, five of which must be in a senior role. They will be asked to demonstrate how they have developed the competencies expected of a qualified CA through a rigorous evaluation of their professional experience. Successful completion of this evaluation will qualify candidates as Canadian CAs without writing our final evaluation. We currently have no pathway to the profession for these senior business leaders. Development of the evaluation of experience is also well under way, with a pilot planned for March 2012.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Go ahead.

[Doretta Thompson]

We've been asked to comment on our experiences in applying for funding under federal government programs, and working with HRSDC and FCRP. Having spearheaded our application efforts, I can say that the proposal process is straightforward, the criteria are clearly articulated, and the staff with whom we've worked are knowledgeable and helpful. Reporting requirements are easily understood.

In terms of the impact of funding, I would say that it enabled us to focus on initiatives we had identified as important, but did not have the staff resources to undertake on a priority basis. Further, these projects enable us to work in partnership with our provincial institutes in a very positive way. Complementary programs, like language training and mentoring, are being developed at the provincial level, and will be shared more effectively on a national basis.

Finally, I'd like to say that in the two years we've participated in these programs, we have also appreciated the opportunities to work with other professional and regulatory bodies. The opportunity to share our experience through initiatives such as the federal government's international qualifications network website, of which we're early adopters, is also helpful and informative.

We'd be very happy to answer any questions or discuss any of our initiatives further.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. There will be an opportunity for questions.

Next, Mr. Wilson, are you presenting?

[Mathew Wilson, Vice-President, National Policy, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Mathew Wilson, and I'm with the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters.

The CME is Canada's largest trade and industry association. We represent about 10,000 member companies from across Canada, and we're the chair of the Canadian Manufacturing Coalition, which represents 47 of Canada's largest sectoral associations. This year is actually our 140th anniversary.

Foreign workers have always been important for CME, as well as for Canada's labour force. However, while immigrants were once relied on for physical labour, today they are relied on to fill the variety of critical labour positions across almost all sectors of the economy. Using the immigration system in an efficient manner as a key source of highly productive and highly skilled labourers is critical to the success of Canada's economy moving forward. Quite simply, without access to foreign workers, Canadian companies will not be able to design, produce, and create the innovative products necessary to remain globally competitive.

The challenges in the current immigration and skill certification system, however, are causing many industries in Canada today to fail. In many provinces and sectors, there are significant shortfalls in attracting or training skilled workers. This is often a result of companies not being able to find the right people with the right certifications in their province, and the current immigration skill certification system, which is not efficient enough at helping companies fill the gaps. Canada must do a better job of developing our domestic talent, improving immigration for focused skill shortages, and properly dealing with foreign credentials.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Excuse me, but could you slow up a little bit? This would be helpful to the interpreters here.

[Mathew Wilson]

Sure thing.

In short, Canada must focus its efforts on simplifying and removing the unnecessary paper and other burdens in the current processes. This is not about reducing competencies or sacrificing skill sets or safety requirements; it is about improving the way that evaluations and assessments are made. If someone with foreign training has the necessary skills, we should implement an evaluation process that would allow this to be determined so that companies in Canada can have access to these people. We need to remove the artificial barriers and focus on the real issues--ensuring that the person has the skills necessary to do the job properly and safely.

The steps taken by governments of all levels to support the needs of industry in this regard have been impressive to date. That includes the creation of the pan-Canadian framework for the assessment and recognition of foreign qualifications, and the Canadian immigrant integration program. But much more must be done by both industry and government. The members of the CME have several recommendations in this regard relating to skills certification and the immigration process.

First, we must expand existing industry-government partnerships on job and skill matching. CME, HRSDC, the foreign credential recognition office, and the Society of Internationally Trained Engineers of British Columbia have created a pilot program called E-MAP--the engineering matching and placement program--which is a technical job-matching program to facilitate the employment of internationally trained engineers into B.C.'s growing manufacturing sector. This partnership between industry and government should be expanded into a nationally funded and supported program.

Second, governments, the industry, regulating bodies, and colleges and universities must work together to create a national database of skills credentials and educational institutions that have already been assessed internationally so that we know, and can determine, Canadian equivalency. Many organizations, including many of the human resources sector councils federally, have been doing this work individually, but it needs to be centralized and made publicly available.

Third, a process for the recognition of prior learning must be created for Canadian companies and governments to have better assessment of an individual's formal and informal learning, such as computer courses, management workshops, and communications skills. This should include work-based certifications, which use recognition of prior learning systems created by sector-driven standards, rather than academic standards as the basis for assessment and the development of evidence.

Fourth, we must expand the work of the pan-Canadian framework to cover skills that are in demand by industry across Canada. The occupations that are covered today and that will be covered in the coming years are an excellent start. However, most of the professions covered today do not cover the skill sets required by industry--for example, construction millwrights, industrial mechanics, ironworkers, structural metal fabricators and fitters, welders and related machine operators, steamfitters, pipefitters, insulators, sheet metal workers, and carpenters.

Fifth, current quota allowances must be increased for provincial immigration nominee programs to allow provinces to quickly adapt to their local industry needs.

Sixth, we must continue to identify ways to improve the labour market responsiveness of the federal skilled worker program and allocate points towards factors that are valued by employers and have been shown to influence success of immigrants in the labour market.

Seventh, we must expand the work of the Canadian immigrant integration program in foreign consulates beyond Manila, Guangzhou in China, and New Delhi in India.

Finally, we must work to improve the immigrant visa program to shorten the timeframes and costs associated with hiring foreign workers. Currently it can take up to four to six months to arrange a work visa, and that's after a company has found a suitable candidate for a vacant position. That is simply far too long. And this time is in addition to the significant cost involved in completing the process through Service Canada, which now requests complete corporate HR plans and detailed results of local recruitment efforts.

Thank you again for the opportunity to present here today. I look forward to the discussion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you. I'm sure there will be questions relating to that subject matter.

Go ahead.

[Carole Presseault, Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I want to thank you for the invitation on behalf of Certified General Accountants of Canada, or CGA Canada.

We are a professional association representing 75,000 CGAs in Canada and abroad, including China and the Caribbean.

I am pleased to see that our colleagues from the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants are joining us today. This way, together, we can provide you with an overview of initiatives in qualification recognition for accountants. That profession is still highly in demand, as my colleagues pointed out.

CGA Canada has been welcoming foreign-trained accountants for many years through a number of different paths. Today I want to speak about four distinct strategies that ensure timely, accessible assessment and recognition of foreign credentials.

The four things I want to talk about are mutual recognition agreements. My colleagues have spoken a bit about that, so I won't go into many details. The principle is the same. I want to talk to you about the new pilot program to offer CGA examinations and locations overseas, an online self-assessment tool enabling foreign-trained accountants to compare and assess their credentials with CGA requirements, and a harmonization project that will enable provincial CGA licensing bodies to access the same assessment data, leading to faster, more consistent assessments. These last two strategies were funded through the federal government program.

For many years foreign-trained accountants have been attracted to the CGA program because of its flexible delivery options. Although all candidates must meet the same internationally recognized high qualification standards, they can study on a part-time basis while working full-time and establishing themselves in their new communities. For this reason, foreign-trained accountants have played a big part in the tremendous growth of CGA designation over the years.

Today, about one-third of our membership in Ontario is foreign-trained, and in British Columbia 45% of our students say they have taken a significant portion of their studies outside Canada.

The first and likely the most direct path for having your professional qualification recognized is through mutual recognition agreements, achieved with comparable accounting bodies. And in some cases the only additional qualification requirement is to pass an examination in Canadian tax and business law.

To date, CGA Canada has negotiated mutual recognition agreements with four leading international accounting bodies. They are in Ireland, Australia, France, and the U.K., the last of which operates on a global basis and is one of the largest accounting bodies in the world.

One of the challenges foreign-trained accountants face is that they must wait until they arrive in Canada to begin the process of qualifying for a Canadian accounting designation. Until now we've been unable to offer qualification examinations overseas due to concerns about ensuring that there is integrity of highly confidential materials and that all candidates write exams under the same stringent conditions. However, a program of the Foreign Credentials Referral Office is helping us overcome those obstacles.

We are currently offering an opportunity for Philippines certified public accountants to earn the CGA designation from their home country. The first examination will be offered in Manila in March 2012. If the program is proven to be successful, we hope to extend it to New Delhi, India, very shortly after.

China, the Philippines, and India are the three largest source countries for immigrants. By adding these overseas examination centres in New Delhi and Manila to our existing operations in China, we will have avenues in all three countries for foreign-trained accountants to begin the process of earning a Canadian accounting designation before they arrive in Canada.

I'll now turn to our foreign credentials recognition national harmonization project.

Funding received form HRSDC last year will assist in addressing two main challenges: credential assessment and gap analysis.

The project will be done in two phases. Phase one is construction of an online self-assessment tool that can be used by foreign-trained accountants to assess their credentials. For the foreign-trained accountant, the online self-assessment tool provides a single interface that will provide consistent initial assessment results. It will assess both their university studies and their professional credentials and will provide them with a clear sense of where they would begin within the CGA program. Since they can access the tool from their own countries, they can get that initial assessment before they immigrate--before they even apply, in fact.

Now I must point out that this online self-assessment tool does not provide an official assessment of the accountant's credentials and will not provide specific results for all of the world's accounting programs. A provincial CGA association must still conduct an official assessment in order to admit a person into the CGA program. However, the online tool will enable many foreign-trained accountants to get a good sense of their standing much earlier in the immigration process, when they are making their initial plans and decisions.

Phase two involves detailed comparisons of various foreign qualification requirements against the high CGA qualification requirements. The results are being entered into a knowledge base that will serve as the back end of the online self-assessment tool.

As has already been addressed by other witnesses before this committee, challenges arise from the fact that foreign credential assessment is a matter of provincial jurisdiction. For the foreign-trained professional, this can lead to confusion and perhaps even the possibility of inconsistent assessments from one jurisdiction to another, not to speak of the cost of these assessments. For the provincial licensing bodies, such as our provincial CGA associations, it can result in duplicated effort and resource challenges as each jurisdiction struggles to conduct the same types of assessments. The national harmonization project addresses both issues.

For the provincial CGA associations, the knowledge base reduces the labour involved in evaluating credentials and provides the means for timely, consistent, and fair assessments of foreign prior learning. The project involves systematically identifying, assessing, and codifying the foreign accounting designations deemed of high importance. By that we mean that they are based on the volumes of applicants.

An additional benefit of this project is that it will help us identify potential partners for future mutual recognition agreements. MRAs provide the most direct path for foreign-trained accountants to qualify in Canada.

The project is proceeding as planned, and the online self-assessment tool is scheduled to launch at the end of this month.

We are very excited about this new web-based tool. As additional data is added to the knowledge base, the self-assessment tool becomes even more useful over time. What we mean is it will be current and it will keep on growing.

There are still outstanding issues in the process, including interprovincial mobility issues. Since most accountants work outside the regulated occupation of public accounting, their biggest challenges are often related to securing suitable employment rather than obtaining a Canadian accounting designation.

In conclusion, the importance of recognizing foreign credentials is well understood and appreciated by all parties, but it does not have a simple solution. It requires federal-provincial cooperation and it requires the collaboration of diverse stakeholders, including the professions, regulatory bodies, education providers, immigrant services agencies, and employers. The foreign credential recognition program has helped to bring these stakeholders together to share knowledge, to build partnerships, and to address systemic barriers. The momentum that has built up over the past few years is achieving results.

Thank you for your attention. It would be my pleasure to participate in the discussion and answer your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for your presentation. We certainly appreciated it.

I've heard about a gap analysis and a bridging tool. It would be good if you had both at the same time and in the same area. In any event, we're going to open it up to questions.

Mr. Patry, go ahead.

[Claude Patry, NDP, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank those who came here to make these presentations.

Mr. Wilson, since I became a member of this committee, you are the first to talk about trade employees and the labour shortages you anticipate. I was a factory worker, so I am especially affected by trades such as steel erector, stationary engineer, boiler operator, mechanic and metal pourer. What do you see happening in those trades?

In addition, you said that you represent 10,000 companies in Canada. Are we talking about large companies? You probably don't only represent trade employees. What other professions do you represent? Could you please explain the situation to me?

[Mathew Wilson]

Our members are in most cases the employers of the trades. They represent all sizes of manufacturers and exporters throughout the country, from mom-and-pop shops to multinationals, in almost every sector: automotive, agriculture, aerospace, and natural resources.

[Claude Patry, NDP, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

In your presentation, you suggested that quotas be increased, and you talked about the problems related to the length of work permits.

Where I live, a company brought 100 welders from abroad—I'm not sure which country exactly—to help out. What are the quotas? What kind of interprovincial agreements are in place?

In the past, a trade employee from Quebec could not work in Saskatchewan. Could you explain that to me?

[Mathew Wilson]

That's a good question. I can't explain why it happens. I can only explain that it does happen and confirm what you're hearing as well.

We hear it regularly from our members right across the country, especially when there are short time-windows and gaps created because of excess demand for materials or for projects. It happens on a regular basis. The inability of workers to move between provinces still exists. People will say it doesn't, yet you can't actually hire the people to bring them in.

It's a real problem and it's not one sector. Nor is it the unions. It's nothing like that. It's a structural problem that we face in Canada. For some reason, we can't trust people from other provinces to be able to deal with welding a pipe together or something like that. I've even heard of examples in Alberta where the certification requires written tests so that they can't use robotic welders, which of course can't write.

It's a little bit ridiculous sometimes how tightly controlled some of these are, and it's a real challenge for industry to adapt in the face of this when we're confronting such critical labour shortages.

[Claude Patry, NDP, Jonquière—Alma, QC]

According to your documents and your line of thought, there will be quite a shortage. I am also hearing about this more and more from the employers in my riding.

What are your figures? What are your projections? What do you think will happen?

[Mathew Wilson]

I guess I'd say a couple of things. One is the labour mobility within Canada has to change. We have to be able to bring skilled workers across Canada from different parts of Canada to where the labour shortages exist. But that is only going to go so far.

Look again just at Alberta, because that's where a lot of the economic growth is right now, and it's pulling a lot of the rest of the Canadian economy with it, which is good because it benefits everyone. They have a skill shortage of about 300,000 workers coming over the next decade, 300,000 new, additional workers to everything they have today. That's really difficult to fill with the local labour pool, given that they only have a population of about three or four million people in Alberta, and unemployment is already at incredibly low levels.

Their ability to continue those major projects and continue to push and pump the Canadian economy is really challenged as a result, and manufacturers are challenged as a result as well. So we need to allow people to move in from within Canada, and we probably need to look at some of our closest allies. There are some big unemployment problems in the United States. Maybe we need the ability to move workers up from the United States on a temporary basis. I know it has been done. When there have been really critical shortages, they've allowed in the range of 1,000 or 1,500 workers to come up on a temporary basis to do welding and things like that. They gave them temporary certifications. Those types of things need to be done as well.

In the longer-term sense of things, we should trust that someone certified in the United States to weld a pipe or to be a carpenter or a plumber is probably safe enough for a Canadian to employ as well, and let the employers be the judge of whether the skills are adequate.

When you look at the broader global scale and what we bring in, we need to do a better job of categorizing and analyzing what's out there, of recognizing the credentials that people have on their way in, before they ever get here, so we can speed up that process a lot more.

We can't have companies waiting. If you're trying to build a plant, any type of project, or some type of consumable good, and have to wait four, five, or six months after you've done an interview process on a candidate, that's a really long time in the business world. You lose a lot of business if you're holding up a production process while you're looking for one person. We need to shorten some of those timelines down as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to the next questioner, Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for being here today.

I want to congratulate the two accounting associations in particular for your presentations. It sounds like you've already done a heck of a lot within your accreditation process to recognize foreign credentials for individuals to practise in Canada, and you've done it electronically. You've set it up through websites and all these other wonderful things, which we should be doing, living in the 21st century. Someone who's in India right now, and wants to come to Canada to be an accountant, should be able to go online in India and find out what they need to do.

I think I'll split my time for my questions, Mr. Chairman, between the two accounting associations and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. So whoever is best to answer, or wishes to answer, should feel free to jump in when I ask my question.

What are you finding in the typical applicant from a foreign country with foreign credentials in accounting, at whatever level it happens to be, whether it's CA level or CGA level? What kinds of general credentials are you finding? Are they relatively close to what we would be looking for and what would be required in Canada, or is there a lot more to fill in? In other words, are most of them who apply 80% of the way there—you mentioned a number of countries that seemed to have more applications than others—or are they quite far apart? How long is it taking for that individual to get from where they are, with the credentials they have in the country they're coming from, to the level of certification we're looking for in a Canadian context?

Whoever or both, do you want to answer that?

[Jylan Khalil]

What we're finding when we review other countries' professional designations is that there are three levels of designations. There are the South American countries, where the designation is usually issued by the universities, so you graduate with a university degree and that gives you the designation. Another format is the European format, which is similar to ours: you get the university degree, you have a professional program, and you have professional experience. Then there's the Asian model, which is very knowledge-oriented: although they have a practical experience component, a large part of the designation is based on knowledge testing. Each of those has different ways for us to approach them.

What we're doing with our initiatives—the evaluation of experience, for example—is trying to look at a candidate who's maybe ten or twelve years out and saying through their experience they've learned all the skills we try to put into our students. Let's figure out a way to measure that and give them credit for it.

Right now, if a candidate were to come with either the knowledge-based designation or the university-based designation, it would take them probably three years here in Canada to upgrade their skills. What we're trying to do with our evaluation of experience is take them right into the evaluation and have them obtain their CA within three or four months.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Very good.

Did the CGA want to comment?

[Carole Presseault]

In terms of full disclosure, I'm not personally involved in the evaluation, but I can tell you that according to HRSDC data there are about 1,200 to 1,500 immigrants each year who self-identify as financial auditors or accountants. So there are quite a few.

I think for us, the CICA has described the assessment process very well. I think that's part of the problem as well. You have folks coming from many places with a very different background. We're able to take them at whatever their level and complete the missing requirements through the CGA program. Our requirements include, as well as three years' practical experience at a senior level, one year at a very senior level, and that one year at a very senior level has to be obtained in Canada. That becomes part of the challenge, to find that high quality job that will give you that year.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

This may be for the CME. The second thing I hear from constituents who've been into my office is maybe they've completed the credentials—they have it or they're almost there—and the next phase is that they don't have any Canadian work experience. So here's the question for the employers: what are you doing or have you done, or maybe we can help you—that's what this study is all about...? How can we get more people to get that experience working for your members so they get direct Canadian experience?

Maybe they're a welder—they've got their certificate—but they can't get the Canadian experience to get them to the next level. Maybe you have already done some of this through your outreach with your members and so on. What are you doing to help fill that gap, especially in those skilled trades you were referring to earlier, which obviously are very important to your members?

[Mathew Wilson]

I think programs like E-MAP, the engineering matching and training program that we're running in B.C., is a really good place to start looking. It's been very successful from an engineering perspective. It's filled, I think, in the range of 10,000 engineering positions in B.C. over the last five or six years. It's been really successful in doing some of that initial integration and getting people working.

Those types of programs are good, but we do similar programs working with provincial governments in different places and promoting.... We have a number of government programs that we operate directly ourselves in Ontario, Quebec, and Manitoba that try to match new immigrants with employment opportunities and different skills. We're doing quite a bit, but obviously more can always be done. A lot of the time it's finding the right people and matching them to the right companies. With programs like E-MAP, if you expand that beyond B.C. and make it beyond engineering, you could have a really successful program.