Evidence of meeting #60 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apprentices.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Can you restart my time?
I heard two very interesting—and I think contradictory—comments here from two of the panellists and I want to drill down to that. Again, focusing on your comments coming back, how do we make it a first choice?
Dr. Dostie said that the earlier you start, but not too young, a familiarization with it...and we look at countries like Germany, Austria, and others who actually use tech training as their sole focus. You are in the elite when you are in tech training, maths, and sciences. We should start to re-introduce it back to the curriculum of elementary and high schools.
But then I heard Mr. Crocker say it's a dead-end program in high schools and it's inappropriate to stream.
And we heard it in the previous panel, that academia seems to have shifted away from all this tech training, and now we're wondering why we're in this situation that we hear about now, where there's a lack of skills and the low graduation rates. There are people going in, but it's much later, after they realize they've graduated and they really don't have a lot of employable skill sets.
Do any of you have comments?
Mr. Meredith.
Conservative
Adjunct Professor, Department of Educational Studies, University of British Columbia
The first question you asked I think is the key one: How do we attract people into these occupations? I think the answer is that it's the same way we attract people into any occupation; that is, the occupations are seen to be and are reliably rewarding for the people who enter them. To the extent the trades occupations are seen to be consistently rewarding and to pay off people's educational investments, I think they will attract people to them in the way that medicine and dentistry and law and accounting and all kinds of other professions attract people to them.
The problem I see is that when we have two-thirds of the labour force in the skilled trades who are not certified and people are being encouraged to go and invest in training and then go out and compete for jobs that non-certified people can get, there's very little incentive to invest in that education. That education, in many cases, doesn't pay off for the people who do invest in it.
I think one of the key reasons that we see the very high dropout rates that we see from apprenticeship is that apprentices discover—often after they've invested a considerable amount of time and effort in their training—that persisting with their training isn't going to get them any greater job security. It's not going to get them any greater wages than they currently get as an apprentice. I think that's the key issue. The economics of the training system need to reward those who invest more than those who do not invest.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
Thank you, Mr. Meredith.
Mr. Crocker, a short response, please.
Principal, Atlantic Evaluation and Research Consultants Inc.
I have a couple of brief comments.
Acknowledging what John has just said, the reality is that in most trades there is substantial financial payoff to certification, and that can be demonstrated. It's not clear that's obvious to people, and it's not true in some trades, by the way. An apprentice hairstylist, for example, does just as well as a certified hairstylist in that respect, but that's not true in other trades.
Going back to the main point about schools, my comments should not be construed as being that we shouldn't expose people to the trades and technologies in schools. Indeed, programs of that nature are quite important.
What I would argue against in particular is emulating the German model, just as the Germans are beginning to reconsider it themselves. The effect of a model like the German model is to stream people very early into programs that they can't get out of. In other words, if you want to go to university at age 14 in Germany and you find yourself in the trades—the dual system—you're precluded from doing so. The Germans themselves are rethinking that on the grounds that their overall performance in international programs in high school are mediocre at best, and their concern is that they put too much emphasis on the trade side.
So I would argue for exposure to the trades by all means, but not explicit streaming in that direction.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki
Thank you for that, Mr. Crocker. We'll probably hear from that source a little later in our study.
Monsieur Lapointe, we'll probably conclude with your round of questioning.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Okay, but we do have five minutes?
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
I'm going to be sharing my time with Mr. Cleary.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, sir.
I thank all of the witnesses for being here this morning. Their comments are very relevant.
Mr. Dostie, in your presentation, just like several previous witnesses, you mentioned a direct correlation between a lower level of education, or a lack of basic skills, and a low level of success in the apprenticeship programs.
In Scotland, when someone begins to receive employment insurance benefits, they have to take a literacy test, and if they have a low score, they have to sign up for a literacy program while they receive the benefits. Do we not need to deal with the basic skills issue if we want the apprentices to get better results in their programs?
Associate Professor and Director, Institute of Applied Economics, HEC Montréal
I agree with you. That is very sensible. Statistical analyses show that basic skills are essential to future success in the apprenticeship programs.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
We must also consider the high level of illiteracy among the 25- to 55-year age group in Canada; it is close to 20%. We should also deal with that problem. The problem is not only in high schools. Is there some key way to improve our results?
Associate Professor and Director, Institute of Applied Economics, HEC Montréal
No. The two key factors I see that really came to light in the results of my work are the education level students have before they register in these programs, and the actual length of the programs themselves. As for increasing registrations, the information has to be made more accessible.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Very well.
Do we have some idea why the failure rate goes up when the practical training period takes place in small businesses rather than in medium or large businesses? Everyone has said that that happens. How do you explain it?
Associate Professor and Director, Institute of Applied Economics, HEC Montréal
It seems related to the fact that other apprentices take part in the same training period. Being the only apprentice in a business is not the same thing as being part of a little group of people who can help each other out.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Perhaps it is not as motivating to be alone in an apprenticeship program.
Associate Professor and Director, Institute of Applied Economics, HEC Montréal
That would seem to be the case.
NDP
François Lapointe NDP Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Crocker, you may make some comments. I will then give the floor to Mr. Cleary.
Principal, Atlantic Evaluation and Research Consultants Inc.
I think the point that's been made is quite important. With the literacy skills, particularly on the part of trade qualifiers, for example, we found in some studies that trade qualifiers do much worse on the Red Seal exams than apprentices. The success rate for apprentices is relatively high on the Red Seal exams. The success rate for trade qualifiers is much lower, and trade qualifiers, generally, are older and less educated. The notion of having some kind of program that might improve the basic literacy skills, for example, of those who are challenging the exams would be consistent with what I said earlier about emphasis on trade qualifiers.
How to do that is a bit of a trick, particularly at the federal level. Basic literacy and high school education and all that sort of thing is a matter of provincial and not federal jurisdiction. I'm not sure what the federal government could do in that area. I've made an argument that modest programs to help trade qualifiers challenge and succeed in the exams would be useful, and basic skills could well be part of these modest programs.
Conservative
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
Mr. Crocker, I found a lot of things that you had to say this morning very interesting. It kind of went against the grain of some other testimony we've heard here.
You talked about how the trades make up 11% or 12% of the labour force. Is that number correct?
Principal, Atlantic Evaluation and Research Consultants Inc.
That's correct, yes.
NDP
Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL
You also said that the trades are not a growth part of the labour force. Where are you getting your information from when you say that? It seems to me, again from other testimony, that we've been hearing the opposite.