Human Resources Committee on Jan. 31st, 2013

[Dan Mills]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have just a couple of comments on that one.

I would say one of our most successful partnerships is with the New Brunswick Building Trades Council and the Building and Construction Trades Department, which is generally made up of the unionized construction sector. Our records suggest that apprentices with a unionized employer are more likely to complete. It also suggests that it might take them a little bit longer. You can weigh the pros and cons of whether you want them to complete or you want them to speed it up.

In terms of a second partner that we've been very successful with, I can't narrow it down to one, but there are a number of not-for-profit groups, including the Y.M.C.A., the John Howard Society, people involved with corrections, people involved with youth, people involved with first nations communities. I would say there are a number of not-for-profit groups.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Ritter.

[Jeff Ritter]

I can echo a lot of what Dan said.

In Saskatchewan our whole system is built on partnerships. I wouldn't narrow it down to any particular firm or non-profit organization. I can comment on my board of directors' strategic planning process, which does include a very active industry consultation component to make sure that the strategic plan developed by the SATCC board of directors reflects the needs and desires of the stakeholders we're trying to serve, which makes it very easy for me and my senior management team to develop an operational plan to try to accomplish those strategic goals.

I think the key is broad-based consultation and the involvement of many partners.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll now move to Ms. Charlton.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you to both of you for your presentations. I'm delighted that you're here today.

I very much appreciate your comments about all three areas that I think are of importance to us as a committee, looking at the recruitment of apprentices, the retention of apprentices, and of course the placement, ultimately. I have questions on all three, although I suspect time won't allow.

Let me start with the observations you made about employment insurance and the support the apprentices need to be able to continue throughout their program.

I think it was you, Mr. Mills, and I think Mr. Ritter as well, who identified the waiting period as often being a significant challenge for apprentices as they try to make ends meet for their study period in the apprenticeship.

In addressing the waiting period issues with respect to employment insurance, are you suggesting there ought to be a special program designed for apprentices, or is the waiting period an issue that actually is the same for all workers who are on EI, trying to access their benefits?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Ritter, go ahead.

[Jeff Ritter]

I would preface my answer by saying that the concerns I've heard have been from apprentices and journeypersons, not the general public. If I could contain my comments within that context, I think it would be best.

Part of this could be even a perception, right? Remember that the apprentices are working under the guidance of a journeyperson. Like everything else, perception becomes reality. As an apprentice hears stories from his journeyperson around potential delays in getting his own EI cheque when he went through the classroom training component, that can influence an apprentice's decision to attend technical training or not. It's not just the reality of the potential wait times; it's the perception that goes along with it that's passed down from journeypersons to apprentices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mills, do you have a comment?

I think the question was on whether there might be a special way of handling apprenticeships, a way that's different from regular EI claims.

[Dan Mills]

It's a great question. I'll make just a couple of comments.

Recently our board chair of the Apprenticeship and Occupational Certification Board in New Brunswick did send a letter to some of the folks responsible for EI around apprenticeship. One of the suggestions was a dedicated 1-800 number just for apprentices. Whether that would work or not we're not sure, but we do recognize that apprentices need some way to get at the system very quickly and have their issue resolved. As Jeff says, the training is anywhere from three weeks to ten weeks, and we have stories of apprentices who finish before they get anything.

The other piece, which I'll finish with, is just a comment. I think over the years we've confused the employment insurance program with a training program. I know there's been talk in New Brunswick sometimes of whether apprentices should be able to access student loans, but because the training in school is short, generally the response to that has been no. I think there is confusion about whether EI....

In the case of an apprentice, EI is really support for training and not necessarily employment insurance. They work and then go to school, and then they go back to work. They happen to interact with the employment insurance system for three to ten weeks during school. I think that's where it gets complicated.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your comments.

Mr. Ritter, I acknowledge what you're saying about the transfer of information from journeypersons to apprentices, but I think we've heard from a number of witnesses over and over again in this committee that the challenges around collecting EI are more than just an urban myth for many apprentices.

I wonder if I could ask you a different question, and this is particularly on the placement side. We've had some infrastructure investments. We could have a long debate about whether or not those investments have been enough, but nonetheless, we've had some investments in terms of infrastructure renewal.

I wonder if you've given any thought to whether there perhaps should be some contract compliance provisions in the infrastructure investments, whereby you would be told that in order for you to be the successful bidder, yes, of course the cost of doing the job matters, but perhaps one of the components to be considered could be hiring young people, creating opportunities for youth employment, thereby promoting skills for some of the infrastructure investments.

That's for either of you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll start with Mr. Mills this time. Go ahead.

[Dan Mills]

I would say that the short answer would be yes. In New Brunswick there is a requirement that, where applicable, government tenders for construction have apprentices as 10% of the workforce. So yes, that is a great idea and that has been implemented in New Brunswick in terms of public tendering.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Ritter.

[Jeff Ritter]

I think that would be a fine idea. I'm not aware of the extent to which that has been implemented within the Government of Saskatchewan for public tendering.

Most of my experience has been in trying to encourage employers to recognize the benefits of having a highly trained skilled workforce. For many that means sort of renewing and affirming their commitment to apprenticeship.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much. Time is up.

The next speaker on the list is Mr. Daniel, but I'll move to Mr. Cuzner. We'll see if we have time left and we'll come back to you, Mr. Daniel. If we don't, we'll conclude with Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I want to thank both witnesses for being with us today.

I wonder if both witnesses could expand on the EI component. It's been said by other witnesses that this is where the attrition rate has really spiked when it comes time for an apprentice to go back to school and with the hiccup they experience with EI. Could you expand on that a little bit as to what you've heard from apprentices about how much time elapses between starting school and actually receiving an EI cheque? As well, what would you think would be the answer there?

Mr. Mills, you've identified doing away with the two-week waiting period. Do you have other suggestions as to how we can best go about addressing that lapse?

Those are my only questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Okay, we'll start with Mr. Ritter. I see the full delegation isn't here so we may go to Mr. Daniel after that. Go ahead, Mr. Ritter.

[Jeff Ritter]

The best information I have on that really comes from the performance scorecard from Service Canada. On that scorecard they indicate that just about 84% of those who file are paid or receive the notification of non-entitlement to benefits within 28 days. That tells me that 16% don't receive that benefit within the first 28 days.

Within the SATCC we haven't done a lot of study into the actual performance measures and how those relate to an apprentice's decision to attend or not attend technical training. It is an area for further research that we're looking into, but it does keep coming up time and time again in discussions with both employers and apprentices.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mills.

[Dan Mills]

Again, I have a couple of comments.

Earlier someone mentioned the urban myth. My experience is that apprentices who are having issues with EI are most likely to connect with me in my province, or with their parliamentary representative whether it is provincial or federal. Based on the nature of our roles, we tend to hear the worst cases.

As Jeff said, there are a lot of apprentices who go to school, get their EI payment on time, get their schooling, and finish, but there are certainly some, and maybe the number is 16% or so, who are missing out.

In terms of what to do, I mentioned the two-week waiting period. That's imposed on their first trip to school, but not on their subsequent trips to school. Maybe that could be waived for their first trip.

The 28 days is also an issue. If it were, for example, 14 days instead of 28 days, that would speed up the system.

The other piece of that is training for both apprentices and employers. A lot of the time when there is a hiccup in the system it's either because the apprentice has not filed their information the right way, or the employer has not filed their information, or in some cases the employer has not even provided the information, for example, the record of employment.

I suggest to look at the two weeks, the 28 days, and some way of educating apprentices and employers about their role and how to get through the system as efficiently as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Mills.

Mr. Daniel, if you have a question, go ahead.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, witnesses, for being present and allowing yourselves to be grilled.

You've both raised the issue about opportunities for employers in terms of participating with apprentices, in other words providing apprenticeship places.

To either one of you, in your opinion are there any potential avenues for the federal government to encourage greater employer participation in the apprenticeship programs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Ritter.

[Jeff Ritter]

Certainly there's a promotional aspect. Our evidence suggests there is an actual positive return on investment for employers to engage apprentices and build a skilled workforce within their company. Helping with even the promotion of the importance of having a highly trained representative workforce would be of assistance, and certainly something in which the Government of Canada could participate.

We talked earlier about potential tendering requirements that would make that a condition. That would be a positive move.

I think both of those are distinct possibilities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mills.