Human Resources Committee on Jan. 31st, 2013

[Dan Mills]

I'll give you my four suggestions.

One, there is a federal government tax credit of 10% for employers. I would suggest that has been moderately successful. There may be ways to improve that, for example, by increasing the tax credit or expanding it to apprentices. It's limited right now to apprentices in year one or year two. There could be some expansion of it. The comment from employers is that it's a bit too complicated if you're a small employer, and some of them don't bother to fill it out.

Another option for the federal government in the way the federal government directly influences apprentices is through the grants. Jeff Ritter mentioned that earlier. These are grants for when they complete block one, block two, and then when they finish. There could be something put in place similarly for employers. It could be a grant directly to an employer who completes an apprentice or an employer who helps an apprentice progress.

Number three, in terms of federal government support, for the most part HRSDC does an excellent job at supporting the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship through the Red Seal secretariat. Ongoing support for that department and that group would certainly benefit everyone in Canada, as well as the Canadian Council of Directors of Apprenticeship, which represents the provinces, territories, and federal government. There could be federal support for that.

Finally, number four, I would echo Mr. Ritter's comments about promotion of the program. I think there's incredible opportunity. We've heard from industry, which wants to participate. We've heard from provinces and territories that want to participate. We've heard from the federal government that wants to participate. There's an incredible opportunity to promote the trades, to promote the Red Seal program, to promote certification and apprenticeship right across the country. I think just about everyone would be willing to participate either in kind or financially to that.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I have one more question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Sure, go ahead.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

The other challenging question is that in places like Britain and Europe, etc., generally apprenticeships start right out of high school. We've heard from many witnesses that generally the apprenticeship programs have more adults who are involved. This has caused some challenges.

Can you expand on any challenges that you see for people who are older and therefore not completing their apprenticeships?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that question.

We'll start with you, Mr. Ritter, and we'll conclude with the answers to that question.

[Jeff Ritter]

That is an excellent question.

The apprenticeship systems in the EU countries have existed for a very long time. They are part of that continuation of public education. The apprenticeship systems in the Canadian context were really structured for adults, mainly for veterans returning from World War II. In most provinces, vocational schools were first established in the 1960s for public school students who were not so academically inclined and whose success was built upon applying what they learned in a much quicker cycle.

The key to the successful element of the apprenticeship system is that it is a workplace-based training program that focuses on the employer or those who have a full-time job with an employer. To change that system would require a fundamental change to most of our educational institutions.

I think the system we have in place does work quite well, and we can build upon that success.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Mills, would you like to conclude?

[Dan Mills]

Thank you very much.

I completely agree with your point. I haven't looked lately, but I think the average age of an apprentice in New Brunswick is 26, and the average age of an apprentice across Canada is 27 or 28. There's certainly a gap between the ages of about 18 up to 26 or 28. There are eight to ten years of a person's potential career that have been lost to something else, so there's definitely a challenge there.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect sometimes those older workers are actually more successful. They have a bit of life experience and are able to navigate the training system, the EI system, the employer system, that sort of thing, but there are a number of challenges.

I would go back to one of the points I made earlier. At the end of the day I think we do need to influence teachers, parents and guidance counsellors because they're the ones who interact with the potential apprentices from kindergarten right on up to grade 12.

Regarding the European example, I would say that of all the provinces, it is probably strongest in Quebec. Quebec does a much better job, I think, of engaging young people in grade 9 or grade 10, and directing them toward a path in the trades. Fortunately or unfortunately, the other provinces and territories do have more of a North American model where, as Jeff says, it's geared more toward adults.

I think there are some lessons to be learned from the Quebec model that exists already in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for appearing before the committee and for some of those insightful comments. We'll certainly take them into account in completing our report.

We have another matter of business to conduct here, so I'm going to suspend until the next portion of our meeting at 12:45, or it may go a little longer.

Thank you, gentlemen. We'll suspend for a few moments to ensure we have our next delegation that is to appear before us. With that, I'll suspend this portion of our meeting.

[Proceedings continue in camera]