Human Resources Committee on Feb. 7th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I call the meeting to order.

We'll get the meeting started. We are continuing our study of economic opportunities for young apprentices.

We're happy to have Lambert Opula here this morning. I'll try to give the organization name: Comité d'adaptation de la main-d'oeuvre pour personnes immigrantes (CAMO-PI). We will hear from you. You'll be able to make a presentation. Please speak fairly slowly; we have interpreters to interpret what you're saying, so take your time. We'll certainly be sure that you have enough time to make the presentation.

We will then have questions to you from each of the parties, and we'll conclude close to one o'clock—sorry, that's 12 o'clock; I stand corrected there. Yes, we do have witnesses for the second hour.

With that, you're welcome to start. Go ahead with your presentation.

[Lambert Opula, Development Officer, Comité d'adaptation de la main-d'oeuvre pour personnes immigrantes (CAMO-PI)]

Honourable chair of the committee, honourable members of the committee, distinguished guests, CAMO-PI thanks you for the invitation to appear here.

Our organization has been around for 18 years. Its mandate is to participate in partnerships all over Quebec to observe the various practices that help people integrate and, from that, we provide observations and advice on Quebec's strategy for integrating immigrants. This organization was desired by stakeholders in the government, the private sector, the union and the community. That is the basis for carrying out our mandate.

Today we are going to focus on four points: access by young immigrants to information on apprenticeship programs, access of those young people to the programs, what happens during the apprenticeship process, and what happens when they try to get a job after their apprenticeship. I will start with the first point: information on apprenticeship programs.

Young immigrants, who arrive at the end of a long, traumatic process, often face poverty and academic retardation. The impact of this is that they are not always in the kind of living situation where information promoting apprenticeship programs is made available. It is not always easy for these young people to know what is really going on when a training opportunity arises.

They also live with families that have different traditions than what we know and do in Canada. In the countries they are from, their traditions place a lot of value in long-term studies, considered the only model for social success. But any opportunity for a young person to move towards a short training program is seen by the parents, who often dictate the what their children will do, as going against their values. This often disorients young immigrants when there is an apprenticeships opportunity.

That's why, when it comes to information chains, promoting programs and apprenticeship opportunities, CAMO-PI is recommending that your committee consider communication strategies that target the environments that immigrants live in. In other words, the funding programs and apprenticeship actions should include a component for reaching out to young people in marginalized areas.

In addition to information in disadvantaged areas, we also recommend that funding for the various programs be planned to ensure that proactive activities can be organized so that stakeholders could meet these young people where they live and direct them toward training opportunities.

The second point concerns youth access to these programs. With respect to youth access to the programs, we have noticed that there are some problems related to the significant under-representation of ethnic groups in trades and among the trainers.

Not having people in their ethnic group in a trade means that these young people do not have a model in this area. They are also afraid to jump into the unknown, into a trade that is unknown in their environment, especially when it is a trade they will enter after a short training period, which runs counter to their traditions.

The problem with under-representation of entire groups in certain areas and certain trades is a factor that limits young immigrants when they are interested in apprenticeship programs. I can give the example of Maghrebian communities, which are rare and have a hard time getting into the information technology and communications sectors. This is sort of an unknown world for young people from those communities.

In these fields, there is always a lack of a minimum level of basic skill in the apprenticeship programs. When young people reach the end of the immigration process, they have experienced a lot of problems, and they may not have mastered one of Canada's languages of work. They are then being asked to do an apprenticeship and then go directly into a job. They feel poorly equipped, since they don't have the basic skills. But the apprenticeship programs are supposed to give them just a mastery of the knowhow. Basic skills are ignored.

This situation helps develop a negative perception that young people and the communities have of apprenticeship trades.

As a result, CAMO-PI is proposing that your committee consider the possibility of raising awareness in the sectors concerned—meaning employers—about the fact that apprenticeship is a source for future qualified workers. To do this, when there is a lack of basic skills, it is absolutely essential to find a way to train these people, rather than provide these basic skills. Time and money is lost. So it is a factor that may affect a company's productivity.

We are recommending that the opposite needs to be done. From a demographic perspective, immigration is increasingly seen as a source of future skilled workers, and we will need to invest in and consider the costs of apprenticeship as necessary expenses to guarantee medium- and long-term productivity.

We also recommend that your committee consider the possibility of integrating a minimum of basic skills in the apprenticeship program.

This might help alleviate the negative perception that some communities have toward trades stemming from this type of training. We also think that an effort to expand the list of trades acknowledged under the Red Seal to a certain number of jobs in emerging sectors would also be a way to respond to the concerns of young people, who tend to think that apprenticeship in Canada generally only involves traditional trades.

The third point concerns the situation of young immigrants, as apprentices, during the apprenticeship process. These young people arrive in Canada at the end of a long process that is often traumatic, as we have already mentioned. When families arrive here, they go through some difficult times in the beginning and are marginalized. They don't have enough money. But the fact that community support is very modest, even though these young people are having difficulty, is a factor that discourages them from getting into an apprenticeship. Apprenticeship involves costs, and these people are marginalized, income-wise.

The process that leads to the completion of an apprenticeship program is long. It cannot be any other way, though, because the young person or apprentice needs to be able to master the skills. But these conditions are not very flexible toward young people who are poor. These young people tend to find small jobs to be able to meet their needs. Since the apprenticeship process is fairly long, young people can feel stuck and often give up on training.

We think that these conditions might need to be a little more flexible. For a young person with little income, the fact that there is only one block that can take several weeks is very demanding. That results in high drop-out rates. In fact, this goes back to the impact of all this on the perception that this route is a way to access the trades. In other words, it generates a negative perception.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Monsieur Opula, could we get you to start wrapping up your presentation? We want to leave some time for questions, so please try to wrap it up if you can.

[Lambert Opula]

Thank you.

To do this, CAMO-PI recommends improving the support given to young apprentices. This support could increase the number of young apprentices who complete the programs.

The last point is access of young apprentices to jobs once they complete their training. We are seeing a sort of distrust or discomfort of some employers with the difference which, in turn, makes it difficult for young people to find a job. The situation is difficult for individuals who have completed training and who are not finding work. Therefore, we recommend that there be a major campaign to convince employers that immigrant apprenticeship is an alternative to education and that diversity is an asset.

To conclude, there is poor coordination between the trades that comply with the provincial standards and the trades eligible for the Red Seal program. For example, landscaping, where the title of the profession in Quebec is worker, whereas under the Red Seal, at the federal level, this standard is for workers and technicians. So it is difficult for a worker in Quebec to find the corresponding trade at the Red Seal level. As a result, there is a sort of a lack of consistency that means that the desired interprovincial mobility is difficult.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

We'll turn now to Madame Boutin-Sweet for the first round of questions.

Go ahead.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Opula, for your presentation.

I will start with one of the last points you raised, which was that apprenticeship programs should be more flexible. We have heard many witnesses speak about apprenticeship programs, and we often ask them if the program meets the needs of certain groups in particular. For example, I'm thinking of aboriginal groups, women or persons with a mobility impairment.

You spoke about adapting programs, which would be culturally easier for young immigrants. Do you have any specific suggestions on this for the federal government? I know you work with the provincial government, but do you have any specific suggestions for the federal government?

[Lambert Opula]

We suggest breaking up the training period into two or three blocks, which would allow young people who are hired to meet their needs by considering the job opportunity. In a single block, young people go a long time without work, which is very demanding, and they often end up dropping out.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

The training is covered in part by the employment insurance program. But employment insurance cheques sometimes arrive a little late. However, people in the apprenticeship program are dealing with financial problems. Do you think something needs to be changed in the employment insurance program to help these young immigrant apprentices?

[Lambert Opula]

Yes.

We said that the employment insurance cheque is low for people who are at this level because they cannot claim to get worthwhile salaries. When they are given only a portion of these salaries, it becomes even more difficult, which often leads them to find other ways to make money, sometimes even illegally. That is why we think that, by breaking up the period, people could overcome that difficulty.

We also think there should be a formula to combine the contribution of the employer and employment insurance. The issue should be examined in depth and the entire situation reviewed. When we are talking about someone who is looking for work, more opportunities need to be made available for young people so that the pool of future labour can remain at the level it was at in years past, given the demographic outlook.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You spoke about modifying and adapting programs. If I understood correctly, you think that certain groups, including immigration organizations, should perhaps be consulted.

For these programs to be modified adequately, who do you think should be involved in the consultations?

[Lambert Opula]

First, there are the groups concerned. In my opinion, there is a problem related to traditions, in my opinion. We should change the perception. Then, there are the stakeholders from the territorial entities where these people live. There are also the funding parties, so the Government of Quebec and the federal entities responsible for this matter. So we are talking about a dialogue involving players from various levels of government and community stakeholders. In my opinion, that is what would make it possible to find more accessible and more inspiring formulas.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

With respect to integration in the work environment, I will give you an example. There is an engineer in my riding who is Iranian. His diplomas were recognized here; that is not the problem. For him, his experience in Canada is the problem. So it is much more than simple work experience.

How could we improve this situation in the workplace and ensure that employers are a little more aware of different cultures?

You spoke about an information campaign, but would it be possible to show employers concretely that people from different cultures have another way of seeing things and that it needs to be taken into consideration?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll conclude with the response to your question.

Go ahead.

[Lambert Opula]

There are two things to consider with that. The first concerns the culture. For that, I suggested an awareness campaign to show employers that immigration will become an asset for renewing the labour force.

There is also the issue of incentives. Employers are generally afraid of anything different. However, when they are offered incentives that have an impact on their company's accounts, they are often tempted. In Quebec, the PRIIME program gives incentives to employers who agree to hire immigrants for the first time and covers mentoring and other fees. In these conditions, some employers are encouraged to hire new immigrants and give them experience.

By applying the same formula at the federal level, the results might be significant. But when a measure is implemented, the players must be given all possible chances to succeed. For example, we launched the IPOP program, which enables professionals from abroad to do an internship in order to have their skills recognized. It's a project that everyone wanted to see carried out, but it doesn't provide enough resources to support the professional associations required to implement it. These professional associations also want a cheque to administer the project that, so far, has not been as successful as we would have liked it to be. If we provided them with the necessary means, this program could seriously improve the possibility for foreign professionals to get this recognition. Then, the PRIIME program could…

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Opula.

We'll move now to Mr. Daniel.

Go ahead, please.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming to be a witness here.

I want to first get a level of understanding of what we're doing. We've been studying apprenticeships for quite a while, and in Canada, in general people enter into apprenticeship programs at an average age of 26 years.

Is that the same in the new immigrant population, or is it a different average age at which they enter into apprenticeships?

[Lambert Opula]

This is a problem for immigrants. For instance, in the schooling system in Quebec, we are told that secondary schools open their doors to young people at the age of 16 and even 18. However, many of those young people are behind in school when they come to Quebec because of the long immigration process and they are forced to drop out. When they arrive, they are placed in a lower level. They can no longer be with young people in their grade level since they are already older because the immigration process took so long. They are a bit frustrated because they were placed in a lower level and they are ashamed of being cast aside. As a result, they tend to become marginalized.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

What do you think the average age is for the new immigrants you've been working with who enter the apprenticeship program?

[Lambert Opula]

The average age is between 18 and 24, but in reality those young people are older because of the delay.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Right.

In many cases we know that because they start later, the fallout rate is very high. Is it similar or otherwise for the immigrant community you're working with?

[Lambert Opula]

I am sorry, I did not quite hear the question.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

The question again is.... You can't hear me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Do you have any fallout rates?

Can you choose some other words?

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

The question is this. Is the fallout rate amongst the immigrant population you're working with about the same as the average for all apprentices around Canada, or is it higher?

[Lambert Opula]

The drop-out rate is the same in the rest of Canada, except that, when we look at the situation in all of Quebec, we see that Montreal's rate is much higher because the city has a very high concentration of immigrants. There are a lot of problems and poverty. So the rate is very high in Montreal.