The first one is a complex one.
We start with the employers bringing forward their need for the Red Seal. I think there are about 55 in the country now. We need that to occur, and then it spreads out through the governments and through the training institutions. There is some level of irony there, because it starts by defining the common outcomes that we want at a Red Seal level, but the further away we get from that decision as we roll it out through the provinces, the more the curriculum then begins to change.
I had a conversation with our coordinator and chair of apprentices. I asked what the implications would be if I came here today and said we wanted to increase Red Seal trades to 50% by 2015 or so, although I'm not doing that. He had real difficulty with it because of exactly the points that you're raising about having industry and governments and curriculum and institutions. Whereas apprenticeships used to be a bond between the apprentice and the employer, we have complicated that by adding a bond between the delivery agent and the government sectors as well. Having the four of those makes it more difficult.
According to the expert advice that I've received, there needs to be a conversation with the employer to get agreement there, and then it needs to be rolled out.
Could you just repeat your second question, Mr. Cuzner?