Human Resources Committee on March 5th, 2013

[Diane Bergeron]

I don't have any statistics on that, so I can only speak from personal experience and knowledge from my own personal work.

I have been in both unionized and non-unionized environments. I have been in a unionized environment as a manager, so I didn't have the union to back me up. In the unionized environment I had a group of people who were supporting me, to whom I could go to if I had a problem, and they would fight the battle for me. In a non-unionized place and as a manager, I was on my own. The difference is not so much whether it's better to be part of a union; what it comes down to is having the networks and the people around you to fight with you.

When I was in my management position and had an issue, although I didn't have the union and I was on my own, I had a lot of people who surrounded me who were also managers and who fought the battle with me. It's probably easier if you're in unionized work because they are organized around it, whereas if it's non-unionized, you have to build that network; you have to build that understanding.

With regard to the previous question you asked, about whether there is more support if one gets the disability after employment or coming into a workplace as a person with a disability, as in my case, specifically with vision loss, people don't understand. If I go in and say I need to use the computer, they look at their own world and say that they look at the screen all day, so how is that person going to be able to use a computer effectively? How are they going to get around? Is there going to be a problem with the dog? Is the dog going to damage things in the office? There are all sorts of questions they have, and it's too much for them to think they can solve all those problems, so they go to the next person.

If you're in the job and you suddenly have a disability, you've already established your credibility. You've already established that you have knowledge, expertise, and competency in the area. I think the employer is more willing to provide that accommodation and support. The barrier there is that the person, before getting back into the workplace to accept all that support and accommodation, now needs to be supported in that pre-employment because it's like going back to the beginning. They now need to learn new skills and new technologies in order to get in and do the job differently.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Your time is up, but if anybody else wishes to make a remark—

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Can I just make a 30-second comment—or less?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You have a 30-second comment, and then the response by Ms. Flatt.

Go ahead.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I just want to say, Ms. Bergeron, you are absolutely right. What happens when somebody has already been in the workplace is that employers actually see the person as opposed to the disability, whereas for people who are trying to get into the workplace for the first time, perhaps employers see the disability instead of the person.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

That's a fair point.

Go ahead, Ms. Flatt.

[Julie Flatt]

I'll try to make it quick.

For our population dealing with mental health issues, it's more difficult to get into the workplace or get back into the workplace after an illness because of the stigma attached. As soon as they hear that somebody's had mental health difficulties, they may go to the media and what the media says about violence, and that sort of thing. The stigma is so great that it's hard to return to the same workplace, even if you can. I've heard of lots of instances where people who returned were not around long. It is very difficult.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

Ms. Leitch, go ahead.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us today. It is greatly appreciated.

I have a health care background myself, albeit I'm a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, so I've had a number of patients who have had associated issues, whether on the mental health side, or lacking a faculty, or sight, or they may have been deaf or other things like that.

The one thing that I've encountered among the young people with whom I've worked in the past with respect to employment are those first steps. What are those first things they should be doing or they should be asking their employer as they try to enter the workplace? It is a huge first step. For the children from my practice who have cerebral palsy, many of them are full-time wheelchair users. They don't even know what to ask.

I want to get your perspective on those first steps, those first questions they should be asking and the things we should be focusing on initially, so that they get their foot in the door, because it is even more challenging for them frequently than it is for able-bodied young students who are looking for their first jobs, and even they sometimes have anxiety about taking those first steps.

What are your thoughts? As a young person entering the workplace, what are those first questions they should be asking, and what should their first expectations of employers be so that we can better educate employers about these young people?

[Jean Beckett]

The programs I mentioned earlier, Routes to Work and Building Up Individuals Through Learning and Teamwork, were programs that addressed those kinds of things. If you have had mental health issues, it can damage your social skills. The medications we take can cause all kinds of side effects that make people kind of back up a little bit.

Through the BUILT network, we were helping people with these pre-employment skills so that they were coming in at least on an even playing field with other people who don't have the additional challenge of the mental health issues. These programs work very well. Unfortunately, many of them have been de-funded and no longer exist.

What we would like to see is some of these programs reinstated, but with a new flavour and utilizing technology so that people can learn to fit better before they even get there. In the past, we were told that if you want to get a job, you should volunteer. Well, I did, and I'm still volunteering. I'm a volunteer today. That is a valid suggestion, but we need to look very carefully at where they volunteer. Just volunteering in itself will not necessarily lead you to employment. You have to be very calculating and educated about where you volunteer and how you volunteer.

Grassroots programs are a huge benefit. We've been there. We've walked the walk. We know what employers are going to ask, and often all people need is more confidence. We can help them build that confidence if they do a pre-employment program with us.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Ms. Bergeron or Ms. Robbins, do you have any comment with respect to this?

[Diane Bergeron]

The pre-employment programs are essential. You can't get a job if you don't know how to cross the street safely or if you lack orientation and mobility skills. You can't get a job if you don't have independent living skills. If you don't know how to feed, dress, and take care of yourself, you're not going to get a job. If you don't have the communication and soft skills, you're not going to get the job.

It's really important for people, especially those who are blind or partially sighted, to learn all of the skill sets around adaptive technology, Braille instruction, and so on, because if you can't communicate through computers, you're not going to get the job.

The first thing I would suggest to anybody with vision loss is to go get your pre-employment skills taken care of. Practise them. Get them the best you can, and then once you've done that, I would say that you should volunteer. Get educated and network, network, network. It really doesn't matter who you know; it's who knows you. So get out there and make sure people know you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You have 30 seconds.

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

Following on that, this may not be quick to answer, but it's a quick question to ask.

What do you think are the two primary things we should be educating employers about in order to facilitate their considering hiring individuals with a handicap or disability?

[Julie Flatt]

My response to that is something that the Mental Health Commission of Canada just told us. What they're telling employers now is, pay now or pay later. You have to have people with disabilities in the workplace. By 2030, mental health issues will be the leading cause of disability in Canada. We have to get employers onside to realize that they have to take people on. If they don't pay now to have that person accommodated, and given the needs they have, later it's going to be much more serious. They have to get on board in a way that sensitizes their own workplaces. They have to understand the fact that disability is on the rise and that it's an economic drawdown for the government in order to pay for all of this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

A quick response, Ms. Bergeron.

[Diane Bergeron]

Breaking down the myths of people with vision loss is really important for employers. People need to understand that just because someone can't see doesn't mean they're not first a person, capable and competent. They're just like other people. We just don't see the world in the same way as other people do.

I remember speaking to a minister out in Alberta, where I'm from. He said, “What do you think the issue is?” I said, “Well, you know, there are a lot of people who think accommodation costs a lot of money. They're quite concerned that taxpayers' dollars are going to be spent on accommodation.” I said, “Quite frankly, I'm a taxpayer, and I'm appalled at the amount of my hard-earned dollars that go to paying to keep the lights on all day to accommodate the retinal dependence of the world.”

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Diane Bergeron]

I think we have to look at it from a different perspective. We accommodate the majority of this population every day. I could save you a ton of money by turning off the lights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Ms. Bergeron.

Rodger, could you take us—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Take us home?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Yes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'll make a couple of comments, but first off, I think I'll use that line—that one and the “It's not who you know, but who knows you”.

We're politicians who dine out on clichés and try to pass them off as insight, so...but it's not really stealing if I take two: that'll be market research.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!