Human Resources Committee on April 23rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Good morning, everyone.

We have representatives here today from the March of Dimes Canada: Jerry Lucas, vice-president, and Judy Quillin, director, employment services. Also, we have with us Marilyn Gunn, chief executive officer and founder of Community Kitchen Program of Calgary. We look forward to hearing from you.

We are conducting a study of employment opportunities for persons with disabilities, and we've heard from a number of witnesses. We're looking forward to hearing from you.

I understand the March of Dimes will start first. Mr. Lucas, go ahead.

[Jerry Lucas, Vice-President, Programs, National Head Office, March of Dimes Canada]

Thank you for this opportunity.

March of Dimes Canada was established in 1951 and is one of Canada’s largest service providers and advocates for people with disabilities. Last year we delivered more than 2.25 million hours of service to over 60,000 Canadians with disabilities. March of Dimes has been providing employment services for over 50 years, predating the introduction of the Vocational Rehabilitation for Disabled Persons Act.

Over the past century, we have seen many improvements in the lives of people with disabilities as a result of legislation and programs that have enshrined rights, improved access to facilities and services, and promoted inclusion in education, employment and community life. Despite this, employment rates for people with disabilities remain unacceptably high, and incomes are unfortunately low. Last year, 77% of people served by March of Dimes had incomes below $20,000 per year, and 30% were below $10,000 per year. We are therefore encouraged that the federal government has recommitted to making employment for people with disabilities a priority in its current agenda.

I'll now turn it over to Judy to speak to the issues.

[Judy Quillin, Director, Employment Services, National Head Office, March of Dimes Canada]

One of the advantages of appearing at a later meeting of this committee is the opportunity to review the submissions of both HRSDC staff and my sector colleagues. The HRSDC staff provided a comprehensive overview of the state of employment for persons with disabilities and the programs the department offers to respond to the current reality.

When it comes to many submissions, especially those by my disability-related agencies, by my colleagues, I am continually disheartened by our approach. Many submissions state the weak employment statistics, followed by the challenges and issues faced by their specific disability group. To truly move forward, the tone of this conversation needs to be about what persons with disabilities can do and urge the Government of Canada to fund programs that assist them to pursue the goal of gainful employment.

In the employment equation there are really only two parties: the employer and the job seeker. All of us in this room are really only involved in that equation because the equation is currently unbalanced. The job seekers, persons with disabilities, are not viewed as competitively employable. If they could compete, if the equation were balanced, they would not need all of us.

As a long-standing provider of vocational rehabilitation services, March of Dimes would like to provide the standing committee with three key issues and solutions on both the job seeker and employer sides of the equation that we believe will make a difference.

We need to maximize the capacity and labour market relevance of motivated individuals with disabilities by providing comprehensive services and supports.

Issue number one includes leveraging existing abilities, enhancing skills, and providing work experience.

For many reasons, some of the disability-related job seekers may lack experience and the skills to be relevant in today’s labour market. Upon initial review, their resumés will not compare to those of other job seekers. In markets experiencing labour shortages, employers will view these resumés as not meeting even their minimum perceived job requirements. Lacking relevant skills and experience is not unique to persons with disabilities, but is a common reality for new grads, immigrants, and native Canadians.

The solution is one where employment agencies serving persons with disabilities must be able to provide continuous and comprehensive employment supports. Career exploration and a full assessment of the job seeker’s transferable skills will establish where the job seeker's abilities lie today. Specialized assessments will establish if the job seeker has the learning capacity to suggest an investment in enhanced skill training. Work experiences geared to the abilities of the client and the needs of the employer will provide real world, on-the-job training. A work experience may also provide a low risk opportunity for the employer to become familiar with someone with a disability, maybe changing a misconception.

Issue number two includes the systemic barriers related to social assistance.

While looking for a job, the majority of job seekers with a disability have their income supported through provincial social assistance systems. We hear time and time again that many of our clients fear that getting work will have a negative consequence on this support. Fears include being found ineligible for social assistance if they lose their job and the loss of health benefits. In today’s economy, work can be short-term or time-limited contracts. Even where safety nets are in place, they may not fully account for the changing realities of the labour market. These disincentives are either real or perceived. At March of Dimes we have a 30% attrition rate between intake and placement. While there are many reasons for attrition, a significant factor is the loss of benefits.

The solution is for governments at all levels to ensure that any disincentives to work, whether real or perceived, are eliminated. They must ensure that the safety net is secure and consistently re-evaluated as the labour market changes. The decision to work for a person with a disability must be based on their ability and motivation to do so, and not on systemic barriers.

Issue number three includes disability-related supports.

Where necessary, job seekers must receive assistance related both to the type and severity of their disability. The greatest need is in the placement or job retention supports. Job seekers need the support of an employment agency to assist them with on-the-job skill acquisition. Employers need to view the employment agency as a specialist or disability consultant with the knowledge to achieve the job outcomes perhaps using different approaches, techniques, or devices.

The solution is to create a successful job match. It is important that job seekers and employers be provided with the opportunity for post-placement assistance which could take many forms. These services should be provided by the same employment agency that provided pre-employment services, to ensure continuity.

I'll now turn to supporting employers.

The first issue is that employers need to understand the business case. Employers are not always aware of the benefits of employing persons with disabilities, and they state concerns that in reality rarely occur. These myths include high cost and the complex nature of disability-related accommodations, higher than usual sick time, safety issues, and low work output. Employers taking a risk-averse perspective, dwelling on the myths, and not recognizing the benefits greatly diminishes the hiring opportunities for persons with disabilities.

Solutions include further developing and promoting the business case for hiring persons with disabilities through business and industry umbrella organizations or peer-to-peer discussion, and eliciting the support of business leaders with real experience that can support researched realities.

A second issue is that placement must be based on the needs of the position. Often, employers require qualifications, education, and experience that are higher than necessary for the position posted. This can be a deterrent for job seekers who feel their abilities will not meet the stated requirements, although they may be fully capable of performing the work.

There is no question that recruitment and hiring is a risky business. Hiring managers have all experienced candidates who look great on paper and may even do well in the interview but are gone within six months. It is a risky and expensive venture. What is the solution?

It is essential that employment agencies take a needs-based approach to placement, and that they fully understand the business needs of the hiring employers with whom they are working. They must facilitate needs-based discussion that explores the essential hard and soft skills required for the position. Employers should forgo posting for the perfect candidate and focus first on the immediate and then the longer term needs. They must understand what is required for the position on day one and what can be trained for over time.

Employment agencies for persons with disabilities can provide suitable candidates who match these essential skills and support further skill development. Employers need only look internally to their own brightest and best. They probably didn't start out the company with all of the requisite skills and experience, but gained these over time.

Issue number three is that employers must leverage resources available within the community. To keep business moving, an open job, be it replacement or expansion, needs to be filled as soon as possible. Companies are either unaware or unwilling to utilize the expertise of employment service providers to present suitable candidates for their hiring needs. Having to launch a recruitment effort slows the pace of business, affects efficiency, and limits the ability of employers to access underutilized segments of the labour market, including persons with disabilities.

At March of Dimes, we job prospect up to 3,000 employers a week. In Ontario, for example, our employer catalogue has more than 250,000 employers. Over the last three years we have worked with only 1,500, or less than 1% of those we have contacted. This demonstrates the hesitancy of employers to take advantage of the services we offer.

I'll turn to the solution. It is concerning that employers are unwilling or unaware of how to leverage existing resources, which are available to them at no charge. There must be a concerted effort by employment service providers, post-secondary institutions, and those that fund us to promote the advantages of our services and the job seekers we represent. We must adopt a professional business-to-business, value-added approach that fulfills the hiring needs of employers better than they can themselves.

In summary, March of Dimes makes the following recommendations to the Government of Canada. Ensure that all employment funding and resulting programs at both the federal and provincial levels facilitate the matching of work opportunities to motivated job seekers. Provide work experiences to gain real-world skills. Invest in individuals who have the capacity to acquire skills needed in the labour market. Remove systemic disincentives to work. Ensure that all employment funding and resulting programs at both the federal and provincial levels include post-placement support facilitated by the same agency that assessed and placed the client. Act upon the recommendations of the report from the Panel on Labour Market Opportunities for Persons with Disabilities, which calls for a strategy to assist employers to understand the value proposition of bringing persons with disabilities to their companies. Continue to support and promote the essential skills project under HRSDC, so that employers can develop suitable and realistic job requirements. Promote to the business community the expertise and resources available to it, primarily employment agencies and post-secondary institutions, services the federal government funds.

We believe these recommendations will balance the job seeker-employer equation and facilitate enhanced opportunities for persons with disabilities in the workforce by focusing on their assets, abilities, and potential.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that extensive report. We do thank the March of Dimes for all the great programs and services you provide, and certainly for your recommendations. I can understand that the post-placement support is as important at many times as the supports prior to the placement. Thank you for that.

We'll now hear from Ms. Gunn.

[Marilyn Gunn, Chief Executive Officer and Founder, Community Kitchen Program of Calgary]

Thank you.

First of all, I want to say it's an absolute honour to be here today. It's very unnerving also, so please bear with me.

The moving forward program started out of the Community Kitchen Program of Calgary. When the federal government allotted us money to build a building that would house different agencies, and also our agency, the Community Kitchen Program, there was a vow made that the entire building would be used to change lives within the city of Calgary and make a difference.

We address homelessness, basically, and low income, poverty and hunger. Those are our areas of expertise.

The Community Kitchen Program has a warehouse of 18,000 square feet on one side and 21,000 square feet on the opposite side of the building. This required workers. I sat down and wondered how could a not-for-profit possibly afford workers. Then it came to me. We were to address poverty and homelessness, and to change lives. That's when I decided that the best opportunity would be to work with the homeless population of the city of Calgary coming out of transitional housing and put them into real housing, but we had to give them the supports, the undergirding arms to retrain them and give them hope and skills. This is what the moving forward program does.

All of our clients have come out of homelessness, or are at risk of homelessness. All of them live below the poverty level. All of them have some type of mental illness. When you live on the street, you cannot escape having mental illness; it's just part of street life. First it starts, and then drugs, and then the first thing you know, there is the cause-and-effect action.

We linked arms with different agencies and said that we should form a program where we can give these people hope coming out of homelessness. Our mission statement is to prevent homelessness by supporting the most vulnerable members of our community. In providing the skills-based training and work program, individuals living with mental health issues are empowered—and that's the key word, ladies and gentlemen, “empowered”—to overcome their barriers to employment, succeed, and live a fruitful, normal, independent life.

That's what we really hang our hat on, to see these lives changed.

Our focus is on warehouse employment training, and courses on nine essential skills needed for work and life as recognized by Service Canada. The program provides opportunities for individuals who have been socially and vocationally disabled by their mental illness, and who are struggling to retain work or return to employment. When they go back to work, many of the people who have suffered homelessness do not retain a position for more than one or two weeks, and then you know what happens: they fall backwards because they haven't had the essential skills, the basic life skills, and the change that has to occur within their lives.

We partner with many agencies. Not one agency can do this alone; it is absolutely impossible. We partner with agencies for recruitment procedures. Where do we get these people from, the women and men? We get them from the shelters, from transitional housing, like Alpha House, which is a treatment centre for alcohol and drugs, in the second stage. We also get them from the remand centre, which is when they're just coming out of prison. We are now working in the prisons to turn them around, take them from there and bring them out into society.

We work with many agencies. I'm going to list them off to show you that not just one agency can be the answer. We work with Alpha House, which is a detoxification centre; Keys to Recovery; the Schizophrenia Society; the self-help association; the Canadian Mental Health Association; Alberta Health Services; Momentum, which teaches people budgeting and financial skills; the Alpha House Society; Workers' Compensation Board; youth and family services; NeighbourLink; and the John Howard Society. We also work with the Salvation Army, the Calgary Drop-In and Rehab Centre, the Mustard Seed, and the Dream Centre.

Those are all services that are there. The clients are now coming out of them and going back into society. That's where we have to be the bridge to get them in there.

Our clients suffer from mental illness, addictions, and are at a high risk of becoming homeless. They have several social and vocational disabilities and there are barriers to finding sustainable employment. When employers see that most of them have had prior offences with the law, some of them have done time in prison, or they have been homeless, most employers just back off and say, “No thank you, we'll look elsewhere.”

Do you know what? We need the tools of change, and that's what it is. We have to take these young men and women and give them instruction.

The Canadian government has identified nine essential skills needed for the workplace in the 21st century. We incorporate these elements into our training: reading, document use, numeracy, writing, communication skills—many of them do not know how to communicate properly—and how to work with others. Most of them are loners and do not get along well with others. Most of them have been in for assault and all kinds of things like that. They are just not social. We also incorporate computer use and continuous learning.

We teach basic life skills. You can't go through life without them. We started cooking with them and it is amazing. Most of them have never cooked; they have never been in an apartment where they have been able to cook their own meals. We have started to train them, and they are learning very well.

Time management to a homeless person is non-existent. It doesn't exist. We teach them time management. They have to be there on time and there are certain breaks. What they do on the weekends and what they do on their time off is very well managed.

They don't have healthy boundaries either. It's goal setting, because to a homeless person there is no goal setting. To work with goal setting is quite a challenge. It is very challenging for us to turn them around and say that without a goal, they will never become anything. The old saying is, without a vision the people perish.

We help with career searches, resumé writing, money management. Etiquette: you may think that is a very silly thing to teach but most of them have absolutely no etiquette or manners whatsoever. Even their language we have to curtail at times.

Healthy relationships, health, and wellness, it's hands-on teaching. For cooking we actually are in the kitchen and we teach them how to read recipes, cook, peel, cut, and all of those things. We as women really know what that's all about, don't we?

For jobs in the warehouse, they learn such things as sweeping, swamping, picking, packing, palette loading, and forklift operating. They spend hours learning these skills. They also learn emergency first aid, CPR, WHMIS, food handling. They get their permit for forklift classes II, III and IV, with 160 practical hours in the course.

This program has been running for four years and we have had seven cohorts of between eight and eighteen students. Our success rate for employment has been 72%, which we are very proud of. We have a graduation ceremony. This is where the graduates from the school invite relatives or people who are close to them. Quite often we see parents who had given up on these young people. When they come they are so proud that their son or daughter has finally made it, finally has a certificate in his or her hands. Most of them have not even finished secondary school, but to have a certificate saying that they are equipped and able to work is amazing for them.

The highest form of ignorance is when we reject something we don't know anything about. Please take time to consider that we are all responsible for our mental health and those around us. Mental health can affect every one of us. It does not matter who we are, where we came from, or where we're going, the effects of mental health can change our lives. That is the moving forward program.

I wish I could have presented you the video I have of a young man who graduated. He was 24 years old and had been on the streets since he was 13 years old. He was completely addicted to drugs and alcohol. He hadn't slept in a proper bed since he was 14 and had couchsurfed for over one year. Many of his friends abandoned him, so he was completely on the streets, totally and completely. Not until he was 21 did a police officer bring him to Alpha House for detoxification. There, he realized that he had reached his low point and he couldn't get any lower.

At that point, Jason decided he needed help, and through the work of Alpha House, which we partner with, they contacted us and asked us if we would take him. He had had many offences, had been in and out of jail, and he had given up hope. There was no light in his eyes anymore. He came in, they brought him up to my office, and he said, “Would you give me a chance? I just need someone to care.” We said we would. Today he has graduated and has a full-time job, Monday to Friday, five days a week. He is completely clean, no drugs, and has been reunited with his family who had thrown him out when he was 13 years old.

This man's life has turned around. It is such an honour to be able to say that with the help of the finances we got from the government, we were able to change one life. I ask you, how much is one life worth? It's worth a lot in today's society. At this point, we have 18 whose lives we are changing.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to come here. It has been amazing. Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much.

I can certainly see how very gratifying it is when you can see a life change. Providing some of the basic skills they need to empower them to be and become who they can be, being part of that is certainly very gratifying I'm sure. We appreciate hearing from you.

We'll open it up to questioning, and we'll start with Madame Perreault.

[Manon Perreault, NDP, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr.Chair.

I will first go to Mr. Lucas and Ms. Quillin, and then Mrs. Gunn.

Your organization is known for its success in placement. Earlier, you talked about the key obstacles. There are many organizations similar to yours. How could those organizations increase their support to help people get back to work?

You also talked about systemic barriers related to social assistance. What kind of assistance do you expect from the federal government?

Finally, you talked about support and training. Are some training programs more important than others and, if so, which one of your programs is currently the most successful at helping disabled individuals?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Go ahead, Mr. Lucas.

[Judy Quillin]

I'll start with the question on the training.

I think what comes first is an assessment of the individual's capabilities and skills. Once we have determined what transferable skills the individual has, then we can determine where they should go from there. In some cases, as our colleague over here said, it's really training for the essential skills of the job they're interested in, and we use the HRSDC essential skills program to support that. These are basically entry level positions an individual would participate in, and we would train for those essential skills.

We also do a specialized assessment of the abilities of the individual to learn and obtain additional education. As you know, we have a skills shortage in this country. If an individual has the ability to gain further education and the capacity to do so, we might recommend, through various programs, that they attend college and get those skills, so there is a direct match to a labour market need.

I hope that answers your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Lucas, did you wish to comment?

[Jerry Lucas]

Let me address the social assistance question.

We recently responded to the report of the Commission for the Review of Social Assistance in Ontario, which was just completed. Thinking back on my experience as early as 1981, during the International Year of Disabled Persons, the “Obstacles” report, which came from the federal government, recommended splitting social assistance related to unemployment from assistance related to the additional costs of disability. That's something we've always supported. We recommended that Ontario follow up on that. We believe that if you separate the two, you can deal with the unemployment issue without taking away the safety net. If that safety net stays with the individual, assuming they have a lifelong disability, what can start out as a financial benefit can transition to a tax credit if the person is able to successfully gain employment and increase his or her income. We believe they are really two parts of the system, but unfortunately they're currently blended.

[Judy Quillin]

I believe the first question was about employment agencies and what these agencies, similar to ours, can do to increase the number of individuals that achieve employment. In terms of the employment or vocational rehabilitation stream, there are two parts to it. The first part is the assessment of the individual's skills and capabilities. The second part is when they are placed, when that job match occurs with an employer, and the post-placement supports come into play. A middle piece addresses the needs-based approach with employers.

If all employment agencies take a look at those three pieces and utilized programs and services within their own communities to maximize those three pieces of the equation, I think outcomes would improve. There is a well-rounded assessment of the individual's capabilities. We strive for a good business-to business relationship with employers to ensure that we are meeting their needs. The third piece would be post-placement supports, in cases where the individual may take a little bit longer to learn the skills and abilities of that particular job. This is where the employment agency can provide support.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much. Your time is up.

Does anyone else wish to make a comment or response?

If not, we'll move to Mr. Shory.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Witnesses, thank you very much for coming here to assist us in our study on exploring employment opportunities for persons with disabilities.

My questions will be for Ms. Gunn. I have visited your organization and have seen the work you began after you retired from life in the corporate world: starting a charity, the good food box program, and Christmas hampers. You have developed many programs that are very helpful. You are highly decorated, with many awards and nominations for the good work you have been doing. The list is very long, so I won't use my time that way. I certainly want to thank you for helping to improve the lives of those people who are in need in our communities.

During this study, I have learned that Canadians with disabilities have a tremendous amount to offer employers, but they seem to be under-represented in the field. I will focus on one of the programs you developed at the Community Kitchen Program, the moving forward program. You talked about it a little. You talked about the successful example of Jason, whom I have met personally. I have actually talked about him in our committee. He is such an inspirational young man. He's very proud to get back to a normal life. I understand that the moving forward program was developed specifically for those living with mental health issues.

I want you to comment on three things. First, I want you to share with the committee whether you think programs like the opportunity fund for persons with disabilities are helpful. Second, in dealing with the employers to get all these individuals back to a normal life, what are the challenges you want us to address, and what are the solutions you would propose? Third, is there anything the federal government could do, specifically the non-monetary initiatives considering the financial situation, to address what is available to persons with disabilities?

[Marilyn Gunn]

First, I'd like to address the issue of the employers. This is a very difficult area. All of our clients have some type of criminal record because of coming out of homelessness and also because of mental health issues. I'd like to give you an example because I don't think we get the full picture unless we have examples.

There is one gentleman in our group. His name is Daniel. When he was 23 years old, he was walking down the street after a fresh snowfall. He picked up some snow, made a snowball, and aimed for a sign. He missed the sign and hit somebody on the back of the head. The gentleman turned around, and guess what: he was a police officer. Daniel was imprisoned for assaulting a police officer.

No one took in the idea that he had mental health issues; he was just committed. He did eight months for assaulting a police officer. When he came out he had a record. He went through our program. Every time he went to get employment he was barred because he had a police record. He didn't rob a bank. He didn't commit a murder. He did nothing like that. He was simply a young man having fun in the snow.

Is there some way we could educate employers? I don't know how this could be done. I have no idea what it would take. Even to be able to have those minor charges dropped and have a clean record would really assist him.

Without having any money, how do you pay to have that removed? It costs a lot of money right now to have a clearance done. This is one thing I think the government could look at: ways and means of helping people with mental illness, especially for such minor things as throwing a snowball and accidentally hitting a police officer. It wasn't intentional; he didn't mean to do that. That is one area I think we could address.

The other area is I think there has to be an awareness made for people with mental health issues. There was a huge committee across this country about mental illness, but not enough is known about it. Many people are afraid of it. Somehow an advertisement campaign or something to this effect would really help people with mental illness.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

Mr. Shory, your time is up. We'll move to Madame Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

Mrs. Gunn. You said that several partners are involved in your programs. Do you receive any funding from HPS, the Homelessness Partnering Strategy?

[Marilyn Gunn]

Yes, our main funding for this program is the opportunities fund and HPS, the homelessness fund. Yes, I do.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

What specifically is that money used for?

[Marilyn Gunn]

The opportunities fund pays for such things as workboots, vests, the equipment, the books that are needed. The other funding goes for our staff. We do need staff to run this program. It also goes for educational...and bringing in other agencies to speak and do the teaching. Bus passes, that's very urgent. These people have no means of transportation. It is so that their general needs to attain and graduate are covered. That's the main thing.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

So it is used to pay staff or to pay for the things you buy for people. It's not directly related to housing, but it is rather in its periphery.

[Marilyn Gunn]

It doesn't connect with housing, although we do work with a committee and a program that does house people, but it has nothing to do with housing whatsoever. It is to give them the skills so they can maintain and supply their own housing.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I asked you the question in order to highlight this issue and make it public.

The direction of HPS is changing, and it should not only focus on housing. It should include other aspects related to housing. That was my point, and you just confirmed it. Thank you for that.

The March of Dimes Canada representatives discussed poverty at length. There are people who earn less than $20,000 or $10,000 a year. As we know—and you also mentioned this—individuals lose some income when they start working. In addition, people with an intellectual disability often have lower wages than those with other types of disabilities.

I would like to know what kind of wages are earned by people you train to work in warehouses. Do individuals with mental health issues or an intellectual disability receive the same wages as others?

The question is for Mrs. Gunn.

[Marilyn Gunn]

For the first three months there is funding from the opportunities fund for that. After that we encourage the employers to pay the same wage they pay every other warehouse worker, because we do not believe there should be discrimination in these matters.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You encourage them to do so, but do they follow through?