Evidence of meeting #80 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was workers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvie Michaud  Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada
Diane Galarneau  Section Chief, Current Labour Analysis and Perspectives on Labour and Income, Statistics Canada
Tracey Leesti  Director, Labour Statistics, Statistics Canada
Linda Silas  President, Canadian Federation of Nurses Unions

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

I call the meeting to order.

First, I would like to thank the witnesses from Statistics Canada for appearing before us today.

We welcome Sylvie Michaud, director general of the education, labour, and income statistics branch; Tracey Leesti, director of labour statistics; and Diane Galarneau, section chief of current labour analysis and perspectives on labour and income.

We're engaging in a study relating to opportunities for older workers in the workforce. After you present, questions will be posed by members of the committee. We will go for about an hour.

With that, Sylvie, go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Sylvie Michaud Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Thank you.

I will make my introductory remarks in English, but my colleague, Diane Galarneau, who will do most of the presentation, will present in French. As usual, I will be happy to answer questions in the language of your choice.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting us to present some background information for your work on engaging experience: opportunities for older persons in the workforce.

I will give you a few caveats. Statistics Canada does not collect information on a regular basis that would look at employment opportunities or barriers for older workers.

Every month we conduct our Canadian labour force survey, which measures labour market participation and employment for the population 15 years of age and over. We do have participation rates and labour market information for older workers. However, information on barriers or intentions for retirement, for example, are collected on an irregular basis. The last time we collected some information was through our general social survey that was done in 2007, so the information is a bit dated. We also had a survey that was done in 2008 on a cost-recovery basis that focused on older workers.

We'll present a bit of information on labour market participation and some trends we've seen over the last 25 to 50 years. Then we'll present a bit of information on what we have in terms of intentions to retire, some of the reasons why people choose to retire and some factors that could affect their intention to retire.

On this note, Diane, please take over.

11:05 a.m.

Diane Galarneau Section Chief, Current Labour Analysis and Perspectives on Labour and Income, Statistics Canada

Good morning.

On page 2 of the presentation, you can see that the participation rate of persons aged 55 and older is increasing. There have been many changes since 1976 in terms of the group of persons aged 55 and older. The proportion of this demographic within the general population has increased. While the demographic represented 17% of the total population in 1976, in 2011 that proportion had increased to 27%. Based on Statistics Canada's Demosim projection model, this demographic will make up more than one-third of the total population by 2031.

Education levels have also increased. The graph on the left side of the slide shows that, between 1996 and 2012, the proportion of persons aged 55 and older with less than a high school diploma—1996 is in grey and 2012 is in blue—went from 52% to 27%, while the proportion of this demographic with a university degree went from 8% to 18%.

The graph on the right shows participation rates, which also increased between 1996 and 2012, particularly among women. The participation rate represents the number of persons employed and unemployed compared to the overall population. For men, there was an increase of 11 percentage points between 1996 and 2012. That is the black line. The rate went from 32% to 43% between 1996 and 2012. However, the rate in 2012 remained lower than that in 1976, which was 47.2%.

For women, the participation rate increased by nearly 15 percentage points, from 17% to 32%, following a period of stability between 1976 and 1996.

Let's move on to slide 3.

While there has been widespread increase in the participation rate across all age groups since 1996, this increase was greatest in relative terms for persons aged 65 to 69. They are represented by the black line. For men, the rate practically doubled, from 16.5% to 30%, while for women the rate increased from 7% to 19%.

The red line, representing the group of persons aged 60 to 64, also shows a significant increase in percentage points, namely 15 percentage points for men and 22 points for women. There is also a significant increase for women aged 55 to 59—the blue line—of 21 percentage points.

As you can see on page 4, the participation rate goes up as the level of educational attainment does. The graph on the left shows the numbers for men, and the one on the right, for women. Since 1996, participation rates have increased for all levels of educational attainment and have been more pronounced among women. The gap between men and women by educational attainment has shrunk since 1996. In 2012, men's participation rate went from 24% to 50%, based on the level of educational attainment, and from 12% to 45% for women.

As you can see on page 5, the proportion of full-time workers decreases as you move up the age groups. In 2012, the proportion of men and women aged 55 and over and working full-time was lower than for workers aged 25 to 44. The numbers are relatively stable over time for men, and have been since 1996, but are increasing among women, particularly those aged 60 to 69. The proportion increased by 8 and 9 percentage points, respectively, going from 61% to 69% for women aged 60 to 64, and from 42% to 51% for women aged 65 to 69.

On slide 6, you can see that workers aged 50 and over have been more likely to remain longer in the labour market since 1996. In 2009, a worker aged 50 could expect to spend 16.3 more years in the labour market before retiring. This is an increase of 2.5 years compared to the low observed in 1996, when the expected number of years to remain in the labour market was 12.7 years.

If we convert that into age, workers in the labour market aged 50 have seen their retirement age go from 62.7 years in 1996 to 66.3 years in 2012.

In 1977, the retirement age was lower than in 2012 and was 64.3 years. Those durations are comparable by gender and educational attainment. A good part of the increase in life expectancy observed since 1996 is therefore reflected in the labour market. Retirement duration is therefore stable in terms of years.

On page 7, you can see that health is, however, likely to limit growth potential for years of work. On average, people are more likely to have serious disabilities after age 75. That varies by income. Serious disabilities begin at about age 72 for low-income men and at about age 77 for people who have a higher income.

Let's move on to page 8.

The following slides deal with retirement. Retirement is a complex process. Data on the subject usually deals with a subjective definition of retirement. In other words, respondents say whether they are retired or not. However, people who say they are retired today may later return to the labour market. So we don't know if people are fully retired. In one cycle of our General Social Survey, conducted in 2007, we asked questions about retirement intentions.

Let's go to page 9.

When we asked Canadians aged 45 to 59 if they were certain about their planned age of retirement, 61% said they were very certain or quite certain about their age of retirement, and 39% said they were not at all certain about when they would retire or did not intend to retire.

On page 10, for the 61% of Canadians aged 45 to 59 who had reported the age at which they intended to retire—so who were certain or quite certain of their retirement age—we examined the characteristics of those who planned to retire at 65 or later. For all workers aged 45 to 59, 37% planned to retire at 65 or later. The proportion was higher among recent immigrants. It was 60%. It was 48% for single people living alone. It was higher for self-employed workers, at about 47%. It was higher for people in homes where the family income was $40,000 or less. That proportion was 62%.

Workers in Newfoundland and Labrador, Quebec and Manitoba were also less likely to retire after age 65. The proportion was 30%, whereas the Canadian average is 37.5%. We also noted significantly different proportions based on industrial sector, by profession, by health, and housing tenure, in other words whether people owned their homes or rented.

On page 11, we also asked people aged 50 and over, who had initially retired between 1997 and 2007, why they retired. Multiple responses were allowed. The reason mentioned the most often was that people wanted to stop working. After that, they said that they had sufficient income and access to early retirement measures in their jobs. Health problems and stress were mentioned by 26% of respondents, whereas slightly less than 10% of them reported having to look after a loved one. Lay-offs were mentioned by 12% of them, and mandatory retirement measures by 10%. The fact that their skills were outdated was mentioned by 8% of respondents. Reasons like discrimination and having a reduced pension while earning a salary were mentioned by 5% and 7% of respondents.

To conclude, let's look at page 12.

A Survey of Older Workers also asked workers aged 50 to 64 if certain employment conditions would encourage them to retire later. Part-time work and flextime were the two most important factors. Other factors were telework and receiving a pension income while working. Those numbers do not enable us to measure whether the people did indeed remain employed longer because of such measures. Those were simply peoples' intentions.

That concludes my presentation.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Thank you very much. Those are some very interesting, informative, and telling statistics for sure. We certainly appreciate having you share those with us.

We'll start with Madame Boutin-Sweet.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much, ladies. I want to mention that you are doing painstaking work. That work is very important.

I would like to ask you some questions about your methodology.

First of all, could you tell us about sampling errors and non-response bias, please?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

What sources are you referring to exactly?

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

I'm speaking in general.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

Sampling errors are linked to the fact that we seek out part of the population. If we repeated the sampling and we chose a different sample, we would probably have different results. Generally, we calculate the confidence level for a statistical measure to give us an idea of how precise it is. Sampling error depends on the size of the sample and the statistics we measure.

We talk about population bias when we have underrepresentation or we have difficulty covering part of the population. That means the results may not be representative if a segment of the population is not covered and if that segment had characteristics that were different from what we were seeking to measure. That type of situation could lead to bias.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you.

We know that there have been cuts at Statistics Canada. Because of that, among other things, several surveys no longer exist. Namely, the detailed questionnaire, or what you call in English the long-form census.

On your website, you mention sampling errors. As you just said, the more respondents there are, the more accurate the estimates are. Consequently, the fewer respondents there are, the less accurate your estimates are. The national survey we now have is based on voluntary participation and not mandatory participation, as was previously the case.

There is also non-response bias. With the voluntary questionnaire, several categories of people don't respond. That means that the non-response bias will be influenced by the fact that several types of people, as you said, no longer respond to the questionnaire.

It says on your website that the results are not representative of the real population. Despite all of the work that you do, unfortunately, because of the cuts, it is less representative. You are also saying that the survey will not have the level of quality that would have otherwise been obtained using the mandatory long-form census.

What kind of information will we be lacking in the future to make important decisions on issues, for example, like seniors and the labour market?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

Today's presentation is based on the current population survey. The results presented here will still be presented regularly, if we are talking about participation. We also talked about the General Social Survey, which is, once again, one of Statistics Canada's basic surveys. It has a certain cycle for content, but again it is a basic survey.

I cannot comment on the household survey.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Nevertheless, today you no longer have certain information that you had in the past. Can you give us some details on what specific information you are no longer in a position to obtain now?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

Tomorrow we will be releasing the results of the household survey. As of tomorrow, we will start releasing information on the survey. Today, however, I can only comment on the results of the Labour Force Survey or on the General Social Survey, which are the two source surveys we used to present results today.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

You have no clarification at all on certain details or questions that are not asked that would be important for us?

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

In the General Social Survey, in the cycle—

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Just one second.

Go ahead, Ms. Leitch.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kellie Leitch Conservative Simcoe—Grey, ON

The intent behind this is that we are focused on encouraging older workers to stay in the workforce or determine what the barriers are. This is not to be a discussion with respect to other items the opposition may have issue with.

I greatly appreciate that the witnesses, to the credit of Stats Can.... I know you run a wide range of surveys, some of which are on a cycle, and I have been part of those for child health reasons.

I'd just like to ask, Mr. Chair, that we stay focused with respect to the actual question of this study.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Do you want to make a point on the point of order?

Go ahead.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Yes indeed, because what you have here are statistics covering several years. As the years pass, we will be less and less able to make this type of comparison because we will not have as many details as in the past. I think that is important. These studies show trends, but we will no longer be able to compare these trends because we will not have the same type of information. That is why I am asking the question.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Komarnicki

Before you answer that, I suppose I should make a ruling on the point of order.

When you came here to testify, you were dealing with survey results not related to the long form census being voluntary or not. The questions should be directed to the information you have.

But the general point this witness is making, I guess, is that if it's voluntary, somehow future surveys may not be of the same quality as the ones in the past.

You probably haven't come prepared to answer that, but if you want to make a general response, you can. However, I'm certainly not going to allow you to be grilled about something you haven't yet studied, or looked at, or can formulate an opinion on. If you want to make a general comment, I think that will be all right. But if we get into specifics, I think that would not be all right.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

On this specific....

I'll answer in French because you asked me the question in French.

With respect to the series mentioned, the Labour Force Survey still exists. We would therefore be in a position to continue to conduct time series as we've been doing. Some results come from the General Social Survey and cycles change. In 2007, we sought to obtain additional information on retirement intentions. In 2012, there was a question on retirement intentions. That will be published in September 2013, but we will not have the same detail as in 2007, as the content has changed.

With respect to the survey of older workers, unless we do it again, we will not be able to provide information in that regard.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Excuse me, I am sorry I did not hear your entire answer.

I heard only part of the answer.

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

I was referring to the survey of older workers. It is in the last slide.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

What did you say? I did not hear you, because somebody...

11:20 a.m.

Director General, Education, Labour and Income Statistics Branch, Statistics Canada

Sylvie Michaud

This survey was only funded once. Unless it is funded in the future, we will not be producing these results again.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet NDP Hochelaga, QC

Thank you.