Human Resources Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Frank Vermaeten]

Thank you for that question.

The TFW program is a large program in the sense that we're getting a lot of applications, and a lot of employers are using it. I think around 46,000 employers used it last year. We're getting a lot of applications. The vast majority of those are employers who would prefer to have Canadian workers, who go through significant efforts to get Canadian workers, and realize that the temporary foreign worker program is a program of last resort. We've heard that over and over again when we've gone through consultations and we've talked to employers. Nevertheless, there are situations where employers are either purposely abusing the program, or misunderstanding the program. There's no doubt about that. To some extent, there will always be cases like that in a fairly large program.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

You did not answer my question. Why did it take so much time to make so few changes?

[Frank Vermaeten]

This is an ongoing effort to reduce these abuses. The government has implemented a series of changes. In my opening remarks, I went through a list of what has been going on. Since I've been working at HRSDC, there've been ongoing changes in the program to try to enhance the integrity of the program.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

I will ask you a second question, if you don't mind, because I only have five minutes.

You talked about conducting reviews. I think Mr. Conrad talked about employer compliance reviews, but are any reviews conducted on the ground? Do you go on site to make sure that employers comply with the legislation? If so, how many people are responsible for that? How many employees are working on that?

[Alexis Conrad]

Yes, as I said, we do hundreds of them in a month. There is a variety of ways that we talk to employers. They often provide a lot of information to us, documents and that sort of stuff. We have an integrity services branch at the department that handles a lot of our integrity work, including employer compliance reviews, which I referred to.

I don't know offhand the actual number of officers, but there are several in each of the regions who work directly on these files.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Do you just rely on what employers say or do you check yourselves?

[Alexis Conrad]

We verify all the documentation that they provide.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

The documentation provided by the employers.

[Alexis Conrad]

Yes.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

So the department does not do any audits on site.

[Alexis Conrad]

In a number of cases, there are other people who raise issues that come up in the media all the time. We talk to those people, as well. There have been cases recently. In those situations, whoever has the information often provides it to us.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

However, it is unfortunate that you have to find out from the media.

Let me go back to the regulations. Does the act have specific sections that prevent employers from sticking the workers with the bill? Actually, there are new fees for work permits. Is there something in the legislation that prevents employers from sticking the foreign workers with the bill for these new fees?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Would you like some clarification on that question?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Yes, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Could you restate the question perhaps?

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Absolutely.

If I am not mistaken, there are new fees for work permit applications. Is there something in the legislation that specifically states that employers cannot transfer that amount to the temporary workers? Is there something that guarantees that the employers, not the employees, are paying the bill?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Thank you.

The legislation only refers to the user fee exemption. It in itself doesn't address the structure of the user fee, how much it will be, whether it's one fee, or all the associated rules, so when the regulations come out, they will provide all the details, including, I am confident, protections to ensure that it isn't passed on to the individual.

If I may, I did want to come back just briefly; I didn't get a chance to finish with regard to your questions on the government and the information it had.

I just wanted to remind you that in 2012 the government introduced a number of changes to enhance compliance. There were legislative changes in budget 2012 and the Jobs, Growth and Long-term Prosperity Act, and the associated regulations are in production currently where we prepare them. They would strengthen the ability of the government, if they are adopted, to enhance its capacity to ensure the integrity of the program, including a stronger ability to deal with employers. There will be more details on that when they come out shortly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much. The time is up.

We'll now move to Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, panel, for being here.

Let me begin by first correcting the record. My colleague across the way said that this is great news that the media had put out. In fact, this information was published on May 24, 2012 on a website, so it's really old news being put out more recently on that.

Having said that, I wonder if you could perhaps make a few comments on how these proposed changes are going to support Canada's economic recovery. How are these changes going to help us in terms of making sure our economy stays on track for growth and prosperity?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Thank you for that question.

As I said before, this is a part of a larger framework of measures to support that Canadian economy. When we look at the temporary foreign worker program, we don't look at it in isolation. We look at it as part of a larger package to try to make the economy more productive so that the skills are there for employers to meet the needs of the economy, and at the same time to try to connect Canadians, domestic workers, with those jobs. So it's part of a larger package.

As I said at the outset, the temporary foreign worker program plays an important role in filling those acute shortages, so what we're doing here is improving the program to ensure that Canadians get first crack at these jobs and they get those jobs when they are available with the right skills. In that sense, it's providing greater assurances that Canadians and domestic workers get those jobs. That's helping the growth from that perspective.

At the same time, we're very cognizant of how important this program is in terms of jobs and growth, and in terms of how we benefit, not just from foreign workers coming here, but also how we benefit as a country and as an economy from the ability of our workers to go internationally and learn new skills and have new opportunities. You do need to look at the larger picture and ensure that we've got a program that meets all our trade obligations as well, and that we can benefit from all that.

This is about finding the better balance, about making sure that the net is working properly to sort out those employers who have genuine needs from those who may not. In that sense, I think it can strengthen the Canadian economy.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard a lot in the press about abuses to the process and the system, outsourcing of temporary jobs because of the temporary foreign worker program, etc. Could you help us understand how revoking the work permits and the opinions will help to ensure that the program is used properly, as it was intended, and not as some of these companies have been going past it?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Sure. Let me say that revoking the permit or suspending the labour market opinion process is a tool of last resort. What we'd like to do is signal to employers exactly what the rules are and to make sure they understand what is a legitimate use of the program, and when there are situations where the government thinks this is not appropriate use. I think it starts out well before the revocation of the LMO or the work permits, so it's to set out that framework. I think the April 29 announcement went a long way towards setting out that framework, clarifying to all employers what is expected and what is considered to be proper use of temporary foreign workers.

One of the things that was announced on April 29 was that there will be a question in the labour market opinion that explicitly asks employers: are you hiring these people as part of an outsourcing strategy? If the answer is yes, obviously there will not be an LMO issued. It's to get an understanding of the program ahead of time.

It's the same thing with the transition plan and the requirement to put in place a transition plan. It lets employers understand again that these are there for temporary purposes, the ability to bring in workers, but that they should be working towards a transition plan to bring in Canadians. Each situation is going to differ, but it's to look at the training plans, look at what the labour market is like, and put those plans in.

It's only when those things aren't working, or facts change, as I've said, or you've got an employer who isn't playing by the rules, that you'd want to use these additional powers to revoke the LMOs or the work permit. It is a tool of last resort.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

With regard to that, can you tell us what tools you will need to ensure that these sorts of compliances are being properly met, or their revocation, etc?

[Alexis Conrad]

As a starting point, if the legislation authorizes something, there will be ministerial instructions that will instruct, that will explain the conditions under which we would do that.

At the end of the day, this connects with our existing compliance measures when issues come up through compliance reviews and we find that employers have misrepresented facts or have abused the program in some way. When we identify that, then the mechanism would be—and as my colleague said, it's a last resort—to revoke the work permit.

What we've been doing over time is making progress, starting from 2011 and last year's budget and pending regulations, on a means to kind of build up that compliance regime so that it all connects together in a way that at the end, when we do employer compliance reviews, we know we have all the tools to ensure that the problems are fixed and the problems don't have any future.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

So you're going to have database tools that you will create and generate that will monitor and track these, and you will know which employers are being non-compliant and have records for the future.