Human Resources Committee on May 9th, 2013

[Alexis Conrad]

Indeed. In fact, we have very sophisticated databases already that we use to generate compliance reviews now and to track employer behaviour in the program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Mr. Daniel, your time is up.

When you're talking about transition plans, obviously there are certain areas of the country where the unemployment rate is very low. Will you have some sort of an objective standard as to what you're looking for in a transition plan? Will there be any latitude, depending on how the economy is doing in that particular case? I know that in some cases it will take a lot of time for developing through your high schools or your visible minorities and so on.

Is there an objective standard? Will there be some latitude on that?

After you answer that, we'll move to the next questioner.

[Frank Vermaeten]

The specific requirements of the transition plan are still being developed, but absolutely it's not going to be a one-size-fits-all; there's going to have to be a recognition that in some cases it will take a long time to develop the domestic labour supply for that.

As we know, some qualifications take many years to acquire. The system won't respond immediately to that. It will take some time.

In other cases, the transition plan would be more demanding, such as when you're looking at a low-skilled worker. How long does it take to train a domestic worker, a Canadian worker, or a permanent resident, for that job? It will take an awful lot less time when there are people available and they require only a small amount of training.

They will be geared towards the availability in the economy. They'll be geared towards how high skilled the work is and how long it takes to train an individual for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Mr. Cuzner, I just used some of your time. I hope that's okay.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's your prerogative, Chair.

I have only seven minutes, so perhaps you could be concise. If you don't have the answer, perhaps an official could provide you with it and we'll get it tidied up, okay?

In 2010 the total funding for the TFW program was $71 million. It's been cut each of the last three years. It's now at $57 million. Is that figure correct?

Also, in that period of time there's been an increase of 60,000 temporary foreign workers. If you know the answer to that, I'll take it now. If not, an official can provide it.

I'll go on to the next question.

On construction sites, it is not an uncommon problem for a company like Syncrude to ramp up a large number on a particular project. I believe, as does my party believe, that Canadian workers should be the first people on the job and the last people off the site. Temporary foreign workers should be last in and first out, but it's not uncommon to see Canadian tradespeople going home while temporary foreign workers are still in camp.

Do you agree with that statement?

Are you familiar with those instances?

[Frank Vermaeten]

We perfectly agree with the statement that you want to make the jobs available to Canadian workers first, and that's—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

But have you come across this before with temporary foreign workers still on construction sites? Have you had any conversation with building trades or anything complaining about this particular situation?

[Frank Vermaeten]

As I said at the outset, it's a fairly large program in terms of the number of employers, 46,000 employers. Absolutely there are situations where an employer will not do, is not doing everything needed to make sure that Canadian workers are hired first, to make sure that Canadian workers stay on as long as possible.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Should this preclude them from using the program again? If this happens, should this preclude them from using the program again if this becomes common practice or if there's a violation?

[Frank Vermaeten]

If it becomes common practice, absolutely. If there's a blatant violation, there are tools in place, and we are putting in place additional tools to make sure there are no abuses of the programs. Nobody wants that kind of abuse of the program.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

This has been one of the most common problems. I would have thought it would be top of the mind awareness with you. These aren't lunch counter jobs. These are highly skilled tradespeople who are going home when temporary foreign workers remain in camps. I thought you would know.

You had said that the minister responded to the issue last year when it became a problem. Was there no response after 2009 when the Auditor General had identified that the program was going off the rails?

The AG identified in 2009 that the program was amiss.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think the AG report certainly identified areas of improvement, as is very common when the AG does a review. I think the government has responded directly in a number of ways to those recommendations and—

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Between 2009 and last year, was there any improvement?

[Frank Vermaeten]

Absolutely. We've got a whole range of them. I pointed out some of the changes that were made in 2011 and in 2012, and the announcements that have been made, but there's a whole range of them.

David, did you want to run through some of those?

[David Manicom]

We could note a few. In April 2011, amendments to IRPA were brought into place to provide a more rigorous assessment of the genuineness of the job offer as well as the authority for Human Resources to conduct employer compliance reviews and put in penalties. The work on those regulatory amendments would have started well before 2011.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do you have those numbers yet?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Two and a half minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Excuse me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Two and a half minutes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Two and a half? Well, that's different.

Go ahead.

[David Manicom]

Following budget 2012, there were the legislative changes to IRPA and amendments to the regulations that are now being proposed to enhance worker protection, give the authority to do much more robust audits, and to penalize employers immediately by removing their right to use the program.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That provision is in there. So if there are big contractors that still have temporary foreign workers on site and Canadian workers are being let go, that provision is in there to penalize them for further—

[David Manicom]

I would say that particularly and in addition, as we develop the instructions for the use of the revocation authorities, if it came to the attention of the Canadian government that someone was laying off Canadian workers before they were laying off temporary foreign workers, that's exactly the sort of situation where those revocation authorities might be brought in.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

What I'm having trouble with is that seems to be a common problem, and certainly the Canadian building trades is a group that is very vocal and very professional. So I would think that you guys would be very much aware of that situation.

Do you have those numbers now?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think it will take us until after the meeting to get the numbers.

Let me say that I would disagree with you that it's a common problem, but there are isolated incidents. I would add that as part of the connecting Canadians with available jobs strategy, one of the things the government did was to link the record of employment, the layoff records, with the application for the temporary foreign worker program, so that if we see that there have been recent layoffs, those employers will not be able to get a labour market opinion.