Human Resources Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Okay. To switch gears just a little bit, in what industries or occupations will you find most opportunities for older workers?

[Susan Eng]

That work has yet to be done properly. The concern at this end is more that there's hardly any clear and present category of industry where older workers are welcomed with open arms.

They tend to be found in casual, precarious positions, part-time and so on. It used to be adequate for those who were having a decent retirement and just wanted to get out and about to stay socialized. In actual fact, more and more people now need a proper full-time job. Those jobs are rare, and they're harder to come by, which is why it's necessary to specifically proactively search out those employers who will welcome an older worker into their workplace and craft the kind of workplace environment that will make them welcome.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Should that type of research have been done before the decision was made to increase the age of eligibility?

[Susan Eng]

Yes, but some of it was done. There was the expert panel on older workers that reported in 2010 or 2009, I believe—I'm not absolutely certain, because nothing was done with the report. Much of the research in that report is work that we're relying on now. All of the issues that I've commented on now were commented upon in that report, except that there's more urgency now for people who are, as I say, living longer and not finding an easy way to make ends meet.

[Ryan Cleary, NDP, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

You talk about the federal government taking a leadership role in helping older workers get back into or stay in the workforce. What specifically can the federal government do? I know that your organization has spoken in the past about tax incentives. Can you give me the top three things the federal government can do in terms of a leadership role to help older workers back to the workforce?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

In about 30 seconds, if you could, please.

[Susan Eng]

Well, show us the money. That's the bottom line.

When we asked them questions about what they would like, such as more dignity or special programs, they just said to get them the money they need to actually get a peaceful retirement, a structured retirement, and also to extend the health care benefits, give them caregiver leave support, and get them the jobs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

With that, we'll move to Mr. Daniel.

Go ahead.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here. Thank you for the good work that you're all doing with regard to seniors, etc.

You're from the CARP organization, Madam Eng, and you are doing a lot of surveys, etc. Have you actually surveyed your membership on whether they would be prepared to pay more taxes to make sure better benefits are available when they're retired?

[Susan Eng]

In fact, we do ask the fiscal accountability question a lot, the fiscal responsibility question, on various and sundry things, whether it be health care.... Of course, everybody wants more services and so on. The responses by our members are always twofold. They don't reject paying taxes, but they do want to see value for money.

Quite often, the top choice is “manage the resources that we've given you”, especially in the health care world, and “find the savings”, so that they can actually get more out of the money they've given you. I don't think you'll find anybody who will belly up to the bar and say, “Here, take more money from me.” But they do recognize the value that their tax dollars provide, and they do want to see it available, especially for those who are not well off.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

We talked about finding out what the opportunities are for workers in all industries and occupations, and I don't think you had a clear answer on that.

Do you have an answer for industries and occupations that we have fewer workers going into?

[Susan Eng]

Fewer older workers or fewer workers, period?

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

If you're an older worker.

[Susan Eng]

One of the trends that has hit older workers particularly hard, and it is addressed somewhat by the targeted initiative for older workers, is one-industry towns where people are working and then the entire industry shuts and they are not trained for anything else and no other jobs are available. So you find people, especially on the east coast where people who are working, say, in a fishery plant, are being retrained to work in a call centre.

There is some modest success there, but that isn't what suits them the most, and they can't live on the salaries that are available with that kind of job. That is a trend. The targeted initiative addresses that subset, but it's not enough to help people who are let go from office jobs; when companies downsize they find they are the first to be let go. To find a job of equivalent remuneration is extremely difficult. My colleague mentioned how jobs are posted now; when you turn in your resumé, you have to tick off boxes—what's your education, etc., do you have this skill or that skill—and there's no box for how much 20 years of experience has given you the ability to do this job, without that particular program for which you wanted me to check the box. Those entry levels to getting through the front door are a challenge.

I notice on the Third Quarter website that they've identified some machinist companies that have advertised full-time jobs. That is new; I haven't seen that before. Before there were call centres, bookkeeping—those are pretty good jobs, but they were not as remunerative or as dependable as this kind of job.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Have you polled your organizations to see the breakdown of qualifications they have, and therefore the appropriateness of what government can do to train and to give them the skills to find appropriate jobs?

[Susan Eng]

We haven't drilled down to quite that granular level. That's something that Third Quarter, with its funding, would be well suited to do, given that that's what they're targeting. As I say, their biggest contribution to this point is to round up the employers who are interested in having older workers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

I think Mr. Racine wishes to make a comment.

[Jean-Luc Racine]

I would like to mention that I have met many people who have not had to look for a job for 25 or 30 years. That does happen. I have often met people, sometimes even professionals, who want to go back to work but are completely overwhelmed because they no longer know how to go about it. Often, the resources available do not really match up with their needs. And so I think that there is a need in our communities to help these people and show them the new techniques, so that they can find employment that suits them and also offers them the conditions they are seeking.

This requires a whole new approach and techniques they unfortunately do not necessarily possess.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Racine.

We'll now move to Ms. Charlton.

Go ahead.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, and thanks to all three of you. I want to thank you in particular for the work that your organizations do in breaking down the stereotypes of seniors as being feeble and non-contributing members to our community. I think it's a really important message for us to get out there. In that regard, I think we have a lot to learn from first nations communities, who take intergenerational learning and mentorship much more seriously than mainstream Canadian society, I would suggest.

I'm interested in all your comments about the difference between those who want to work and those who need to work, and I think this committee needs to make sure that we tease out those two streams when we talk about older worker participation in the economy.

Ms. Eng, I know you said 50% of survey respondents, not necessarily your whole membership, said they want to work; the other 50% said they need to work. But your membership is 50-plus years for the most part, right? Can you tease out those numbers between those who want to work and those who need to work over age 60, say. I can imagine that when I'm 52 I may still want to work. My reality may change by the time I'm 60, when I may have to work.

[Susan Eng]

We can cross-tab last weekend's poll to get at those answers. We don't have an absolute answer for you. All I can say is that on a gross basis this was the answer.

We see more people who in the past would have already retired going back into the workforce in larger numbers, to the point that the number on a gross basis has actually doubled. This indicates either that they really love going to work or they really have to. We have to tease that out.

I know that it's become more and more important for subsegments of the whole population, especially people who are already in lower-earning careers, single women in particular. The income supports that they depend on don't click in until age 65. Many women, especially single seniors, increasingly in the ages of 60 through 64, don't have access to the spouse allowance that others do who are in partnership. There's an entire group of people who are slightly under the radar and who have to extend their working career just to make it through. They couldn't think of stopping any time soon.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

If you get that information down the road, I'd sure be interested in having a look at it. I think it's one of the critical pieces for us.

As you said in your presentation, after 2008, when the economic crash happened, older worker participation increased. It suggests to me that there really is an economic link that needs to be made.

We also know that there are huge regional disparities. If you live in a one-industry town and you lose that industry, older worker adjustment programs haven't really kept pace with the need.

Mr. Racine, I know you represent francophone Canadians right across the country, but in Quebec, in particular, the program for older worker adjustment was hugely successful. It hasn't been replaced with any program, to my knowledge, that achieves the same goals. I wonder if you could talk about the adjustment programs, both financial and educational, training and retraining for older workers between the ages of 50 and 60 or 65. I think they face some of the most significant challenges as they're moving from family sustaining jobs to part-time jobs because that's all they can find. The supports aren't there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Ms. Eng.

[Susan Eng]

One thing we got back from our members and people who call us was the question: training for what? Of course, there needs to be training, and indeed in this recent budget there was announced a job grants program, which redirected some of the training funding into areas targeted to what employers want, which is really what it amounts to.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Well, we don't know yet.