Human Resources Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Susan Eng]

But the way it's described, an employer has to choose an employee whom he or she wants to train, put their own money up, and then obtain matching federal and provincial funds. If you look at our situation where older workers already find barriers to staying and getting new jobs, what is the great likelihood that they're going to be the ones chosen to be trained? They present themselves fully trained and they're not getting the jobs. So what is the likelihood that they'll get that training?

Our target and our emphasis is on getting the job, the job match, articulating that there is a category of worker who should be valued, that they come to the table with different types of skills. We want to recruit those employers and incent them to offer those jobs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that response.

Your time is up.

We'll now move to Mr. Butt.

[Chris Charlton, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Could Mr. Racine respond?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Did you have a response, Mr. Racine?

[Jean-Luc Racine]

I think that what you mentioned points to the importance of a comprehensive strategy. If we only have programs to train workers and we do not reach out to employers, we may well miss the boat. We may have people who are very well-trained, but if the employers are not willing and have persistent biases against older workers, I have the impression that things are going to be much more difficult. So in my opinion, we need an overarching strategy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to everyone for being here today.

Ms. Eng, I was interested in some of your study results. Ms. Charlton has referred to them. Do you have a breakdown of women versus men in those studies? Do we know if more men want to work longer or more women? Or is it like your study showed, with 50% wanting to keep working and 50% having a need to keep working? Was there any breakdown on that? Are we seeing any trends for men and women?

[Susan Eng]

In actual fact, for the 55-plus group, both men and women are participating in the workforce more than they did in the past. There was an increase...I think there was more of a steady increase for women than for men rejoining the workforce.

I don't see the explanation for that yet, but if I had to suggest why, it would be because people are coming back to the workforce after caregiving responsibilities for an older relative.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Right.

I think one of the other things that we do know—it's a fact—is that people are living longer. A lot of people didn't plan for 25 or 30 years of retirement, and now they're getting to the stage where they're thinking they'd like to retire at 55, but what happens if they're still living at 85 or 90? Perhaps 55 is too young to be retiring out of the workforce.

Even if it's something they can do part-time, on contract, or whatever, are we seeing more trends around that kind of thing, and are we finding employers being more flexible?

We've had some other witnesses say that one of the advantages of older workers—if they're willing to do it and it fits in with what they want to do and what their employment expectations are—is that they are more flexible. Their work-life balance is different, because the kids are gone for the most part and they're not caring for children at home. They have more flexibility, they could work different hours, different days of the week etc. As well, some can take a contract for a period of time and then not do something for a bit when that is over.

Is that a key component of the older worker labour force, to make sure that there's maximum flexibility in a lot of these opportunities?

[Susan Eng]

There is certainly a critical mass of people who want that flexibility and who can accommodate it in their retirement plans, because they have a company pension, or they have other resources and want to wind down, or they want to see their grandchildren more. There's certainly a critical mass of people who want that kind of flexibility.

There is only one caution I would add to that, which is that it should not be taken by employers as an opportunity to exploit a group of people who take the job they get offered because that's the only one on offer, because many people also have continuing needs.

You were right in the beginning of your remarks when you said that people haven't planned enough so they can actually retire at 55 if they want to. That's an issue of savings, and earning on those savings. Another part of our advocacy is for a proper pension plan so that the people can have those choices.

A critical problem for them is also that many don't take into account the kinds of added expenses they're going to face, whether it be health care issues...and so on. That also drives many back to the workplace.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. Butt.

We'll conclude with Mr. Cuzner for a few moments.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Great. Thank you.

I sat with a recruiter from the Cape Breton District Health Authority on the way to Ottawa. He said his job has been a little bit easier lately as none of the doctors want to retire because the markets are down. It's the first time I've seen bad markets as a positive thing. One man's heaven is another man's hell.

I want to throw one specific case at you, if you could comment on it. There's been a case that's been sort of dogging a group in my constituency, the Cape Breton regional municipality, where there are a number of workers who want to continue to work past 65, the age of mandatory retirement, but there's a provision in their pension plan that precludes them from going on working. They've taken it to the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission.

First, is this fairly common? Second, are your organizations able to do anything about it? Is there any role for the federal government to address this kind of stuff?

[Susan Eng]

Absolutely. When we were dealing with the issue of mandatory retirement in the federal legislation, it became obvious that New Brunswick was the only province in which the law permitted a pension plan to actually require mandatory retirement, and the law allowed that.

Nova Scotia had a similar provision and took it out. Therefore, your workers should win. I would suggest that before they spend any more money on the lawsuit, they get a thorough review of their legal position and convince the employer how wrong they are on the law, rather than take it all the way up to the Supreme Court with a charter issue.

That's my short answer, but don't take that as legal advice.

It is an issue that stays with us. Although we have removed some barriers and some official legislated age discrimination, those kinds of specifics remain. So I think they should really look at that even more carefully, and we will look at it again now that you've raised the issue.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do you think there's a role for the federal government to play there? I don't know.

[Susan Eng]

The leadership role shown by removing it at the federal level is one. Unfortunately, this is provincial legislation. Pensions are governed by provincial legislation in this case, so they have the final say there.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

The government has decreased the funding in the targeted initiatives for older workers. Two years ago it was $80 million, and this year it will be about $32 million. Has CARP come out with a position on that?

[Susan Eng]

We haven't followed that specific issue as much, but obviously we would have to see where the impact is.

As I said earlier, we're focusing on getting people jobs rather than focusing on the training.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. It's a fairly significant drop.

Adult literacy is a hurdle. For many people, and for older people in particular, it's a barrier to upgrading their skills, accessing training, and accessing work.

There's been a cut. Over the last six years, the funding for adult literacy has gone from about $40 million annually to $20 million annually.

Do you want to make a comment on the impact of literacy on job opportunities for older workers?

[Susan Eng]

Absolutely, the workplace today not only requires literacy but also numeracy, computer skills, and the new technology. While they are capable of learning, they don't come to the door with those skills in play.

For older workers, there is a need for transitional funding, to make sure they have extended time in employment insurance and have the time they need for additional training. Previous changes in the budget did provide a little bit of additional time so that older workers did not have to wait those extra two weeks if they went right away into a training program and so on. Those kinds of initiatives need to be magnified, to recognize the need, first, for upgrading and the time it takes to do that, and also for the amount of time it takes to get a new job.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cuzner.

We'll bring this to a conclusion.

Thank you very much for coming and for your indulgence in starting a little late. We thank committee members as well for going through a rather heavy agenda.

With that, we will adjourn.