Evidence of meeting #22 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was apprentices.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
For the basic old age security pension, yes, it is based on the amount of time you spent in Canada.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
Great. Thank you for that.
On the changes for the apprenticeship loan, when we look back to the Canada student loans program, we had a great amount of benefit for students pursuing academic pursuits, academic studies, but there was a gap for people pursuing apprenticeships based on the number of weeks, the blocks of training. This was a barrier for people doing shorter blocks of training, that they couldn't get into this Canada student loans program. Is that accurate?
Director, Operational Policy and Research–Canada Student Loan Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes, that is accurate.
The Canada student loans program parameters are clear that the study program that the student is going to must be at least 12 weeks long. Apprenticeship programs usually are not that long. They vary between 4 and 12 weeks. So that was one issue. The other one was that the Canada student loans program parameters require that the program the individual is pursuing must lead to a degree, diploma, or certificate. These technical trainings don't do that. That's why apprentices did not qualify for Canada student loans.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
You said, shockingly, that 50% of people who start in apprenticeship in Canada don't complete their apprenticeship for various reasons, and you went into some of the facts. There's an opportunity cost. They're getting paid while they're doing some of their work hours and training, and to leave and go back to a block study, the opportunity cost, for one, is quite high.
What percentage of academic students who are in the CSLP are graduating? What's the difference between the 50%, and what's the percentage for them? Are you aware of that?
Director, Operational Policy and Research–Canada Student Loan Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
There is no good data on the completion rates there, but usually when people talk about dropout rates of university students, it's in the 15% to 20% range—those who dropped out. Completion is not necessarily the opposite of dropout. Some people take longer to complete; some people take less. But apprenticeship completion rates are substantially lower than university completion rates.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
I'd be accurate in saying roughly 30%, 35% would be a good guess—
Director, Operational Policy and Research–Canada Student Loan Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
It could be.
Conservative
Scott Armstrong Conservative Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS
—in the disparity between the two.
If we're looking at trying to build a parity of esteem, which is what we're calling this, where the Canadian government, as well as Canadian society, has respect for people going into the skilled trades and other apprenticeable trades, it would be necessary for us to actually put our money where our mouth is and try to provide financial support for those people going into it.
Would that be a basis for the decisions? Does this change meet some of those challenges?
Director, Operational Policy and Research–Canada Student Loan Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes. This program, of course, will try to address the financial barriers that apprentices currently have because of which they can't quite go to the technical programs and complete them. In addition to that, hopefully it will also work as a signal that the government is trying to encourage apprentices to go out and complete their training and so on.
Conservative
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thanks for your testimony.
I'm a newcomer to this committee—it's temporary—so pardon me if my questions don't reflect previous discussions on this matter. I'm trying to understand the briefing note about clauses 371 to 373, which reads:
[...] a sponsored immigrant, their spouse or survivor would no longer receive Old Age Security benefits (the Guaranteed Income Supplement, the allowances to the spouse or common-law partner or survivor benefits) for the duration of the sponsorship, regardless of the number of years living in Canada.
The paragraph before that is that these allowances are benefits that are paid to the pensioners. It implies that they would have received that prior to these amendments and they are no longer receiving that.
Is that not correct?
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
That's a good question. I will clarify.
Currently, the Old Age Security Act prevents the payments of the guaranteed income supplement and the allowances for a sponsored immigrant. However, that restriction stops after 10 years. Once the immigrant has been in Canada for 10 years, it doesn't matter if they are still sponsored or not; they become entitled to those benefits. That was okay before the changes were made by Citizenship and Immigration on January 1, because the longest sponsorship period was for the parents and grandparents category, which was 10 years.
Now that it becomes 20 years, it would not make sense to leave our provisions the way they are, because you would end up having individuals being in Canada for more than 10 years and still being under a sponsorship agreement. They would still have someone responsible for them financially and collecting guaranteed income supplement benefits, which are supposed to be based on need and targeted to those most in need.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Where this says “would no longer receive...for the duration of the sponsorship” what's happening is that they would no longer receive for the same length of time because they would no longer....
Is there a difference in treatment between the pension itself and the GIC and other spouse and common-law survivor benefits?
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify.
There is no change to the old age security pension, the basic pension, which is the universal benefit given to all seniors who meet the residence criteria.
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes, that's correct.
The current provision regarding sponsorship is just for the income-tested benefit, so only for the guaranteed income supplement and the allowances. Those restrictions do not apply to the pension.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you.
What if the person who is sponsored becomes a citizen? Does that change the fact that they're still not able to receive GIS, etc., for 20 years, or is it that once they are a citizen, they are fully entitled?
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
If you are sponsored, you cannot receive the guaranteed income supplement until you reach 10 years of residence in Canada. It's not about citizenship; it's about being sponsored.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you.
Sorry, I know that time is short here.
There are going to be two classes of Canadian citizens, obviously. There will be those who don't get these extra benefits for 20 years, when it used to be 10 years. There will be Canadian citizens who are in poverty who do get this top-up. Was there any analysis of how this will impact income inequality statistics in Canada?
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Yes, there was.
We came to the conclusion that the impact on the incidence of low income by that change would be negligible. The reason is that sponsored immigrants have sponsors who are financially responsible for them so they are not left in poverty. Moreover, I would add that when Citizenship and Immigration brought their changes to their sponsorship rules, one of those changes was to strengthen the financial criteria of the person who sponsors the parent or grandparent.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Phil McColeman
That's five minutes. We've over time.
Now we move to Mrs. McLeod.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thanks to the witnesses.
What has been referred to in the BIA, I think, are three very sensible, very important changes in terms of how we're moving forward. I have a quick question. Maybe each of you can answer.
Approximately how many pages do your changes take in the BIA? Do you have any idea?
We'll start with whoever gathers it first.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
Mr. Chair, the changes to the employment insurance benefits and consequential changes to the Labour Code run four pages, French and English.
Director, Old Age Security Policy, Department of Employment and Social Development
For the old age security change, it's one page.