Human Resources Committee on May 8th, 2014

[Nathalie Martel]

The first answer that comes to mind is that, if the situation was so serious that the sponsor had to declare bankruptcy, the Old Age Security Regulations would apply. That would be considered a sponsorship breakdown, and the individual would consequently become eligible for the guaranteed income supplement.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Okay, but long-term illness was never taken into consideration.

[Nathalie Martel]

Not since I have taken on this position. No changes have been considered during my time with the department.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I think this is something to look into.

[Nathalie Martel]

Duly noted. Thank you for the comment.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I have a question about apprentices. It was mentioned that special conditions may be implemented for repayment of loans if the student terminates their training.

Would any accommodation measures be involved and, if so, of what sort?

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Actually, we're over time, so we'll have to hold the answer on that. Perhaps it can be woven into another round of questioning.

Now we'll move to Mr. Butt, for five minutes.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I apologize for my voice today if it comes and goes. Bear with me, and if I get into a coughing attack I'll do the best I can.

Thank you all for being here. It's very much appreciated.

I think these are some excellent changes, and I'm very excited about the apprentice loan program. I think it's great. I'd like to dig down a little bit more on the benefits of that new program specifically.

It's up to $4,000. Is it directly tied to the tuition costs of the training? Is that how the loan is determined? If the courses cost $3,000 to participate in, would that be the maximum amount of the loan? How do you verify and make sure there are the checks and balances in place so the loan amount properly reflects the actual training costs for that individual?

[Atiq Rahman]

Thank you for the question.

Actually, this will operate not quite like the Canada student loans program, where we do have an assessment process for the financial need of the student. On this one, the apprentices will be given a choice. We have looked at data that is available, and the needs vary widely because the amount of money they earn, there is a lot. The cost varies quite a bit, too. This is a program where the apprentices will have a choice. This is a repayable loan, so they will have to repay it at the end of the day.

They will be given a choice as to how much they need, up to $4,000 for a period of technical training. Depending on their individual circumstances, some of them might take all of the $4,000, or they might decide to take only part of it.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

If they're receiving this loan and they're receiving any other benefits, those aren't clawed back or affected by this at all? This is a separate stand-alone program, specifically designed to provide training money to people, and then over time, it's repaid.

[Atiq Rahman]

That is exactly right. This is to complement other supports that are already there. Data says that the supports that are out there don't quite meet the need of the apprentices. So this will be available to them to meet that gap that they currently have. When they complete their apprenticeship, they will pay back the loan.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

My next question has to do with the changes in EI around compassionate care and the other benefits.

One of the first meetings I had with a constituent after I got elected in May 2011 was with a parent who, at the time, did not qualify because we did not have EI coverage for critical.... Their child was critically ill at the time. I promised him that this was one of the things I was going to come to Ottawa to try to get changed so that families like his would be covered.

Could I get you to explain this again? If your circumstances do change in your life between the various different types of benefits, if you're already on EI and you become ill, or if you're already on parental benefits and something else changes, how easy is it going to be for people to make the change to ensure that they are receiving the benefits to which they are entitled?

[Annette Ryan]

The parents of critically ill children benefit was established with the Helping Families in Need Act brought forward by Minister Finley, and has been in effect since March 2013. In order to establish those benefits, essentially what's needed is a medical certificate from a specialist that says that the child is truly in a gravely ill situation.

In order to change to sickness benefits, the provisions are essentially lighter on behalf of the parent. They need to be able to establish from any medical practitioner, say a GP, that they are in fact ill, and they can suspend their benefits and start sickness benefits. Essentially, it's not an onerous requirement on people to switch from one type of benefit to the other. I'm not sure if that gets at the heart of your question.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

We're dealing with legislation today, but then there's the reality of its actually working in people's real lives, when they're in these situations. I want to make sure that it's going to be seamless, that they will simply contact Service Canada and let them know that their circumstances have changed and that they are no longer under one program but are now under another one because of the circumstances.

I just want to make sure that it's going to be seamless and that the clients of these programs understand what is involved, so that they get their benefits properly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to hold it. We're over time as it is. We want to get as many questioners in as possible in the limited time we have.

We will move to Mr. Brahmi for five minutes.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say something to Ms. Martel.

We understand the logic behind her explanation, but in reality, extending the length of sponsorship agreements from 10 years to 20 years is at the root of the problem. Had that period not been extended to 20 years, the sponsor would not have to carry the burden of taking care of the sponsored individual for an extra 10 years. In the most critical cases, such as the sponsored individual becoming ill, the extension of that period will encourage sponsors in financial difficulty to declare bankruptcy. It is actually easier to go bankrupt in such cases than to continue to fulfill the responsibility for the sponsored individual.

Fundamentally, this is a bad immigration measure. I will not ask you to comment on this because it goes beyond your jurisdiction.

However, I do want to come back to the issue of apprenticeship, since that situation is a bit of a concern for me. You said that 50% of apprentices do not complete their training, and I think that's terrible. Certain countries have successfully overcome employment crises and ensured that their workforce is participating much more actively in the labour market. Germany, which successfully reduced its rate of failure in training programs, is a perfect example.

Do you think this measure will help reduce the drop out or failure rate in apprenticeship programs? More specifically, does the failure rate during training periods vary according to whether those periods are short or long, or according to the number of weeks they take to complete?

[Atiq Rahman]

Thank you. I will answer in English.

The intent is of course to increase completion rates. It's not always the case that apprentices are necessarily dropping out. Sometimes what happens is that they go on for a very long time and don't complete. There are a number of reasons that contribute to that.

One of them, which data shows, is that they don't have the money to go on technical training, because it requires them to go away from work for a number of weeks. This initiative is intended to remove that financial barrier. The hope is that this will increase the completion rate for apprentices, too.

I don't have information on whether it varies across different apprenticeships, depending upon duration, or not. But as I said, as long as it is due to financial barriers that they are not able to complete, hopefully this initiative will remove that barrier.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay. Regarding these financial barriers, I would like to know whether you carried out any predictive studies to determine what the average needs of apprentices were, by sector, before setting the amount at $4,000. We know that the length and cost of training vary by sector. Therefore, apprentices' needs are not all the same.

Did you carry out any predictive studies to determine the amount of money apprentices need based on their trade?

[Atiq Rahman]

Yes. As you said, it varies quite a bit across the country, across different trades. We did some analysis of this, and given the other supports that there out there, our estimate was that access to up to $4,000 should be adequate to fill the gap they currently have between the supports they have and the need they will have.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Are the results of those studies available? Could you submit them to the committee?

[Atiq Rahman]

We'll take it back.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Now we go to Mr. Maguire, for five minutes, sir.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I wonder whether we could get a further clarification with regard to my colleague's question on the continuation of the flow of the benefits he was speaking of, just so that we can make sure there is no interruption. Can I ask you to comment on that, please?

[Annette Ryan]

Yes, sir. I think I understand better and I would definitely confirm that there is no interruption in benefits. It is a seamless flow of support from Service Canada in these circumstances, when the claims are established. We have worked with Service Canada colleagues throughout to make sure that this is as easy as possible for clients, especially given the circumstances.

I would give the example of, say, a mother who becomes ill on her maternity claim. If she were to call up Service Canada, once this bill has been put in place, they would advise her that she is absolutely covered during her maternity benefits and to take whatever care or treatment she needed.

Should the illness continue beyond that period of maternity benefits, sickness benefits can be started right away, with no disruption in EI support. Then she is entirely entitled to her full weeks of parental benefits, again with no disruption in income support, but essentially a flow of cheques from Service Canada.