Human Resources Committee on May 27th, 2014

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Colleen, can I get you to wrap up now, please?

[Colleen Hodgson]

Sure.

As Chief Leon said, starting in June there will be a fee for service for WorkBC. We won't have people accessing it. Métis people will not access it. They do not have the funding.

I would just like to say that I reiterate many of the thoughts of both my colleagues here regarding the LMDA funding. I think it's important that we recognize....

I'm from the northwest of British Columbia and I'll just wrap up by saying that industry development is not what everybody thinks it is. I really highly doubt there will be five LNG plants operating with millions of people working. If you're in Kitimat or Prince Rupert, you'll see that it's not reality. We need to be training people in health occupations in B.C. as well.

We'll prepare a brief for later.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you so much.

We're going to go over to Madame Groguhé.

You have five minutes.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

During the committee's discussions on the aboriginal strategy and LMDA renewal, the various challenges facing aboriginals have been raised. They are systemic and endemic challenges.

It is clear that, in the course of the committee's work on the renewal of the strategy, we've discussed the importance of making sure some of our political efforts really focus on access to early childhood learning and formal education. That means access to the calibre of education that is worth its salt, to avoid the stumbling blocks we are dealing with today. When you have adults who are lacking basic skills, known as essential skills, it is obvious that the problem has to be addressed at the source.

That said, Ms. Hunt, your expertise when it comes to essential skills and literacy has been mentioned. You've worked with industry in that connection.

I'd like you to tell us more about those joint efforts in particular. What was required? How can LMDAs address specific skills training in this regard?

[Karin Hunt]

The critical component is this. We use the national occupation codes. Every job in Canada has a national occupation code, and from that code we are able to determine the competency levels that a person needs to function at to be proficient in that job. We develop them for that proficiency and to meet those competency levels. We do that in partnership with the industry where they actually come in and help us develop the curriculum for their particular program. Having developed the curriculum, we ensure that it covers most of the job maintenance skills, along with the essential skills, because essential skills are connected to the nine essential skills that would help you to perform well in any job or any trade.

So we do that in partnership with the group that we are developing that curriculum for. Our people then become accustomed to interacting with people from that particular industry and confident in speaking with them. So when the time comes to do the interview, they feel at ease being interviewed by people from that particular industry.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Ms. Hunt, that's very interesting. Very interesting, indeed.

[Karin Hunt]

It includes all of the safety requirements for that job and occupation. It requires any of the legislated safety practices, for example, through WorkSafeBC. So it's a combination, and it's probably the most effective model that I've seen in a long time. We've used it for many industries.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Hunt.

My second question is for Mr. Nelson.

You're working on putting forward solutions based on aboriginal entrepreneurship. Can you describe those initiatives for us?

[Chief Nelson Leon]

Right now, with the development in B.C.—emerging industry, as well as, what would you say, beefing up the infrastructure—many communities are creating linkages. For example, at Adams Lake, we have archeology contracts; for the highway, Brentwood is the contractor. There's a partnership to provide truck drivers, flag people, first aid. We're working on developing those partnerships and initiatives to get our people working. Part of the challenge is the skill labour market that we have, and the need to have fairly easy access to funds to provide the training and the skills. There's a lot of work in B.C. There's a lot of development from first nations in terms of growth in industry on reserve lands, and again we're seeing the need to not only have use of the ASETS funds but a better partnership with the LDAs and LMD.

[Sadia Groguhé, NDP, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Indeed, through the LMDA framework—

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I'm sorry, Madame Groguhé, your time is finished.

We'll now go to Monsieur Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Chief Leon, you mentioned more funding. It's the first time we've heard actually a request for more funding. In our discussions we've heard more about a better delivery model and a better connection with the employer and the educational institutions, and that participation.

First of all, how can we improve the model so that there are better outcomes, and a better connect, for the person who needs the training and also the employer? Is there a good interaction with the employers who are out there looking for these potential employees?

In terms of the other participants in this, do you think there's any responsibility on the student to put some skin in the game, to actually put some money into it? I know that with my children I found that the outcomes of their education were great when they earned money to put into their own education. I think there needs to be some input from those who are participating in the program.

Could you comment on that in terms of the participants?

[Chief Nelson Leon]

In terms of participants, you're talking about dealing with an aboriginal population that is impoverished at the best of times. For them to say they'll put some in.... They have nothing to put in, so you're basically creating more exclusion.

In terms of increasing funds, either to the LMA or the LMDA, I would take a look at that, but more important, I think, is to develop the collaboration and accountability to first nation partnership. Increasing that without an accountability or a collaboration or a partnership structure with local ASETS holders doesn't really serve or make any more funds or opportunities available to aboriginal people.

I believe the industry itself should also become an active partner. We're creating a skilled labour market that they in turn profit off of. They can take some of these profits and put them back into skill development and labour market development.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay.

Do any other witnesses wish to respond to that question?

[Colleen Hodgson]

Thank you.

I agree with Chief Leon's thoughts exactly. The word “partnerships”—they are difficult to develop. If it were easy, there'd be a whole bunch of really great ones in industry, but there are not.

One way I found that is effective is having formal agreements. An example would be a labour market development agreement that is specifically about capacity for skills training, and lining up those goals that we both have but can't seem to connect on. It would be having those formal agreements, such as a partnership accord or something to do with labour, that are specific. It's difficult, because there are other things involved, such as rights. But if we can get the labour market partnership accord signed off with industry, it works.

I'll give you an example of something that took place. I'm working on a proposal with the Justice Institute of British Columbia, which is a public post-secondary education institution, on the emergency medical responder training program with an oil and gas piece, because there's this huge demand coming up in that sector. Spectra Energy is one of our partners on it. We got them involved and asked them who they would need—physically, on the ground, not on paper or in a theoretical piece. Who will you hire? How many guys or girls will you have on the ground?

Out of that conversation, it came to be known that between Alberta and B.C., you cannot transfer paramedics. There is no transferability. All of the oil and gas industry thought they would pull paramedics out of Alberta to come to B.C. and the northwest to work. They suddenly realized they could not do this. So now we're relooking at the whole thing, figuring out all the paramedics we need, because they're pulling them out of the communities they're servicing. The paramedics are being pulled out of there to go up north and make a whole bunch of money.

There are all these dynamics going on. Without that strong labour market relationship with industry and the post-secondary institutions, it's kind of like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing sometimes. They just assume things. It's specific to Alberta, because in the northwest we're kind of new to the whole oil and gas thing. It's a bit of a learning curve. It is for industry as well. They just thought the transferability was there, assumed it, when it's not for a lot of trades. Now we're relooking at the whole thing.

That's just an example of having that connection with the employer. Guess what? Spectra Energy doesn't hire the people. The medic companies hire the people. The contractors hire the people. The Ledcors, the PCLs, the KBR Industrials, they hire people, not Spectra and not TransCanada and not Enbridge. So it's tough.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mayes.

Our next speaker is Mr. Cuzner.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, again, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses as well.

We haven't heard a lot about entrepreneurship from any of the witnesses through the study.

Most of the focus has been on skills acquisition, technical training, and what have you. Could you give us a true and realistic assessment as to how your organizations are dealing with developing entrepreneurs, and whether the right supports are there within the LMDAs, and past LMDAs, in order to support you folks in providing entrepreneur training. Are there things that should be included in an LMDA going forward that would further enhance that? Could you give us an overall view as to where you are with entrepreneurial development.

[Karin Hunt]

Our organization sponsors a small business adviser for aboriginal citizens and we have done so for about 15 years. Their role is to work with the community and to provide education and awareness around the types of skills and components required to start a business, how to work through a business plan, and so on.

There haven't been any resources that have been targeted toward aboriginal small business through our process. If there were to be through the LMDA I think it would be necessary that this be a carve off of aboriginal small business development and something that the community could work with the government in designing. Critically, when it comes to designing for programs or offerings that are specific to the aboriginal community, that should only be done through the aboriginal community. All too often we have program formats that are presented to us designed behind the door somewhere by someone but not necessarily in consultation with us.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Who's to benefit in a program like this?

[Karin Hunt]

I absolutely see benefit in there being resources for aboriginal small business development, but the entire framework for that should be developed in concert with aboriginal people.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Go ahead, Nelson.

[Chief Nelson Leon]

In our area there's the All Nations Trust Company, as well as the Community Futures Development Corporation of Central Interior First Nations that do provide entrepreneurial training. There are relatively regular intakes. There are also individuals who have gained the necessary business skill set to start their own businesses who then turn around and need skilled labour.

Again, as Karen has said, if we're going to put more moneys into it, whether through the LMDAs...again, a critical part has to be the accountability. There has to be some transparency. You can't say we're going to put more money to target aboriginal entrepreneur skills development into an organization that doesn't have accountability as to the number of aboriginal clients or doesn't have any reporting mechanism as to the partnerships, collaboration, or the linkages with aboriginal communities. That money will not reach aboriginal people. For me to say that I recommend that, I wouldn't. It would be more money with the accountability, the transparency, and the need to develop a collaborative effort to meet the growing labour market.

We still continue to be underutilized. The most effective means of utilizing the aboriginal labour market is through the existing institutes, the ASETS holders. Time and time again we've demonstrated a good return, anywhere from 12% return on investment of the funds going in to a 30% success rate of the number of people taking training and entering the labour market. For Adams Lake alone, just my band, we have 100 regular employees. Last year we had 80 additional employees. Our payroll is a quarter of a million dollars every two weeks. These are people, from ages 18 to 26, who are demonstrating a tremendous amount of responsibility with their income. They are buying vehicles, clothes, and using it for recreation. The quality of life has changed for those families. This is my community but there are other Secwepemc communities, other communities in B.C. and in Canada, where our young people are not going to lay idle. They want to be involved in the economy.

At another meeting recently I asked why people are worried about giving us money. We don't have banks in our community. Money is not stuffed in our mattresses. It flows right back into the Canadian economy, into businesses, into income tax, and into the whole financial system. So, invest more, but ensure that the accountability and the transparency in terms of who you are targeting is reported.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you so much.

Your time is up, Mr. Cuzner.

Now we are going to go over to Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the presenters for their presentations here this morning.

Chief Leon, I think you were going to make a comment before you wrapped up that your cost of doing nothing is huge. You had some comment that by 2026 there would be $4 billion Canadian invested, I believe it was, and please correct me if that number is wrong. There was also a large number of savings that you were talking about in costs that could be saved by giving around the work. I wonder if you could elaborate on that a little for me.

[Chief Nelson Leon]

Again, I have had the great opportunity of having technical support and involvement with a fair bit of different activities in my own community, and I am taking this on the corner of my desk because there hasn't been the political representation. Quite honestly, I can't even find my note right now regarding that. I kind of skipped over it because I felt there is a significant savings, and again I'm just using the numbers overall. I think it was 30%. Whatever you invest, there is almost 30% returned in savings between EI and the social assistance fund.

I can't pull out the actual number right now. You'll have to excuse me.