Human Resources Committee on May 29th, 2014

[Michael Mendelson]

Sure. I've avoided talking about the Canada job grant because I did not want to.... I think there were some important things to say about the LMDAs that we could just submerge in a discussion.

I'm going to say something contentious. In my view, it's very evident that the Canada job grant will result in a net reduction in training in Canada, for two reasons. One, it's displacing relatively inexpensive, well-tested programs that have taken quite a long time to evolve. Two, a lot of the money will go to offset some of the costs that are already being spent anyway. For example, the gentleman who was here previously was speaking about a company that did quite a bit of training. I'm not blaming the company, as I would do the same obviously. But if they were paying for it themselves before, they'll now gladly take the $10,000, or whatever's available, from the government. So that will be, from a taxpayer perspective, money that's lost on training. So my view is that the Canada job grant is going to result in a reduction in the amount of skills training going on in Canada.

I didn't want to say anything too incendiary, but there it is.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

But it sort of mentions it, and I don't disagree with Mr. Mayes and his comments in the last round with regard to...and what the Minister has said as well, that employers need more skin in the game. I agree with that, but I think we have to realize that if there's something in the LMDA that can be done to offset any.... You say the risk is that the underemployed or unemployed, with the job grant, may not be served as well as under what's there now. Under the new job grant, maybe the underemployed and unemployed will not be served as well. Do you have a comment on that?

[Michael Mendelson]

First of all, under the Canada job grant, many employers will have less skin in the game because they'll be getting government grants, whereas before they weren't. That's an issue. But how is a high school graduate in Nova Scotia going to get the skills they need to get a job in Alberta under the Canada job grant? Is an employer going to train them so they can get a job somewhere else for some other employer? I don't think so.

There is something to be said for on-the-job training, and I'm very much in favour of it. We don't do enough of it. But that's not the be-all and end-all of training. There is a lot of downsides. Employers, as we've mentioned, small and medium-sized enterprises, don't have human resource departments. There's no way they're going to be able to develop meaningful training programs.

There are also other issues. There's a concept, for those of you who took first-year economics, of spillover effects. If you know you can train someone but that training is portable, your money might end up benefiting your competition's firms. That's a classic case in economics of under-investment.

How do people who aren't currently employed by a great firm that wants to do training get access to the Canada job grant fund? There doesn't seem to be any way to do that. Will they get the kind of skills training they need? It's not in my view--and I'm trying to be very non-partisan about and non-ideological--a well-designed program from a policy perspective.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much.

I'm now going to move to Mr. Maguire.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thanks to our presenters here this morning as well.

One of the things that I wrote down when Mr. Brazeau was done speaking here this morning in the previous panel was that young people are being attracted to places where there are no jobs. The words I wrote down are “better communications”. You've indicated, Mr. Mendelson, in your comments about how that should be done in real time. I couldn't agree more on how to set that kind of a program up. Have you looked at what else can be expanded with today's technology, and could you elaborate on that a little more? I think it's a very important point to the question about mobility that I asked earlier.

I have another question on the comments you just made about the training. I will perhaps ask both members to make a comment on how to improve that communication package.

[Michael Mendelson]

Yes, I think it's critically important. I'm not an expert on that use of technology, but I know this: we're not going to get from where we are today to where we ought to be unless there's some leadership and somebody decides to undertake that task. People made fun of the federal government for using Kijiji, but there's a core of sense in that, which is that's the way labour market information is going to be available.

The problem is that it's not a coherent use of it, I would say, because Kijiji has various problems with how people take out the jobs once they're filled and once they're no longer available, and whether they ever really were available, etc. The central concept that if you could capture the administrative data, if firms do report their job openings in a coherent way, and you can capture that administrative data, then there it is in real time. You can assemble big data, if I can call it that, about where vacancies are in Canada.

There's a core concept there, but it would take a lot of work and time. I urge the federal government to do what it can in that regard, because that's something that the federal government only, in my view, could do and do well. It will take an investment. It will take time. It will probably be a screw-up for the first, you know, seven months or so because that's the way these projects work. But then it could be very meaningful and we could be a leader among countries. I'm told the Nordic countries are going in that direction. I don't know much about it.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks.

[Kim Allen]

I'd offer the comment that I think we need to deal with the micro and the macro. The job posting that's in there deals with today and the immediate, which I think is helpful. For the whole long-term training strategy, you need to be thinking about what those things are five to ten years down the road. I think you need both. I don't think either one standing alone will do it. I think you need both so that young people today are thinking it's important to them to get a job, but overall we need to get some type of better sense on how many we need in that broader, whole quantity of the number of positions.

Also, I think it's important that we say not only here are some of the jobs but that we also identify where they are. That's a huge issue too because we've got lots of different people and there's a mismatch of the willingness to move to those types of places as opposed to....

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Universities have postings and job placements and that sort of thing all across the country. People in universities can go to look at them. People in training schools and our community colleges can look at those. Is there any point in putting this into guidance counselling programs in high schools and that sort of thing as well so that some of our graduates there are more familiar with what might be available to them in other parts of Canada? I say so because our youth are the most mobile part of the workforce.

[Kim Allen]

Our career-focused tool is one of the things we're trying to do. It's an online type of tool that helps people look at the 85-odd behavioural traits of where their best match is and where their best skills are. My belief is that if you can get people who are very passionate about what they want to do, they'll move to where that place is. If it's just a job, then they're probably going to say that location is more important than the job. But if they find it's a passion for them, put it in there.

We're trying to unleash that passion in the youth so that when they do study, they'll find the career they actually do want to go into, and then they'll have to go where that career will take them.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you very much. Your time is up.

We will now go over to Mr. Brahmi.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to respond to what you said, Mr. Mendelson.

I don't think I'm quite as optimistic as you are. I don't think it's possible to set up a data system like the one you described in seven months.

I say that because the problems the Quebec government had when setting up its health records program come to mind. The system cost hundreds of millions of dollars and still isn't reliable. So I would have to put a bit of a damper on your enthusiasm because I doubt a system of that nature could be put in place in the short timeframe you referred to.

Would you like to respond to that?

[Michael Mendelson]

Health files are notoriously complicated, by the way. Of all the records and systems we have, they are among the most challenging and difficult.

I used the seven months. I was just talking. I wasn't very—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, maybe.

[Michael Mendelson]

It's a long-term project.

I have a broader point, sir. This is that the concept of survey data, where you survey annually and you get your report and then you assemble the data and it takes a year and a half, is the way of the past. The way of the future is to do what the whole of the private sector is doing, which is to assemble the administrative data and use that data as your source of information.

It seems to me there will be, and is, a way to do that for labour market information. As to how you go about doing that, as I said, I'm not the expert, but I know we won't get there....

I will confidently predict that 20 years from now we will be there.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

I have to cut you off there, as we are short on time.

You said the federal government should give the provinces more freedom and latitude when it comes to managing LMDA funding.

Isn't there a risk in doing that? This might be more of a problem for eastern Canada, including Quebec, because of the reality there, but some provinces could pay to train workers who then leave the province to work out west. They don't return to eastern Canada until they've completed their careers and it's time to retire, so provinces that didn't foot the training bill will reap these workers' professional contributions. Isn't there a risk, then, of an imbalance in that regard?

That is an issue that comes up mostly in the eastern provinces and Quebec.

[Michael Mendelson]

Some might see it as a risk; others would see it as a benefit. One of the paradoxes of the labour market is that labour supply is local, and labour demand is national or international. How you marry those two is difficult, but I would say that one of the benefits of the LMDAs would be in training people who could move to the place where the jobs are if it is not possible to create jobs where the people are. We know it isn't. We know, unfortunately, that there is disruption. People do have to move from time to time.

You're asking a really difficult question. It's a very difficult proposition, and it's one that governments all over struggle with, and I do myself.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's fine.

Mr. Allen, I'd like to talk to you about immigrants who are engineers. I was an engineer in Europe for about 15 years, and I went through the Ordre des ingénieurs du Québec's certification process.

In your view, what could we take from the funds currently being collected for EI to help people who don't necessarily meet the 360-hour requirement? How would you propose incorporating immigrant engineers into that process?

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

Thank you. I feel bad, but you are over your time—

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Fine.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

—so I'm hoping that you'll get a chance to respond as we go on.

I'm going to go over to Mr. Butt.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Let him answer. He can take a minute of my time to answer and I'll take four minutes.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I need unanimous consent.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

It's a good question so let him answer.

[The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims), NDP, Jinny Sims]

I need unanimous consent.

Oh it's your turn. Okay, that's fine.