Evidence of meeting #26 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was provinces.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I know, but I'm saying that I will give up a minute of my time so that Mr. Allen can answer that question. I think it was an excellent question.
10:30 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Engineers Canada
There are a number of programs that I think are often wider spread than those. The University of Manitoba and Ryerson and the University of Toronto now have programs where they work very closely with the regulator and assess the immigrant engineer's skills, and if there are some gaps—and there are differences in engineering education around the world—in their education, they integrate them right into their undergraduate program and they can end up with a certificate and then meet the academic requirements.
So I think putting those types of programs in where they can actually get the training, where they are going and are getting the exact same training as the Canadian engineers are getting, is excellent.
They are funded. At Ryerson, for example, they have made it work so the Ontario government provides the same type of subsidy per Canadian going there, as they do for the immigrant per course, and the immigrant engineer would pay the same tuition fee per course as the Canadian one. So there's no subsidy.
By doing a certificate-type program they can also get into the student loan program, which actually helps them in there. Then as they end up with full employment, the whole system works well for them.
10:30 a.m.
Conservative
Brad Butt Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Thank you very much.
I only have one question about data because we've heard a lot about data. I come from the property management business, the rental housing sector, before I got elected here. Most of the members that I represented participated twice a year in a rental market survey. The only way you could get good data on vacancy rates and rental rates was that the companies had to feed the data into the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.
So my question for both of you is from the employer's side, are the engineering companies across Canada willing to participate in a program regularly? I don't think once a year is good enough; I think it's got to be done at least quarterly in my personal opinion. But if we create some sort of a program of labour market data so we're getting accurate data on an ongoing basis, are employers going to participate?
Second, Mr. Mendelson, because you have quite a bit of experience in this, what model do you see working where the employers are going to bring that data in on jobs that are available and trends in the market? Can we come up with something that's relatively quick and electronic that can aggregate the data together and get these reports out on a timely basis? Is there software out there or other types of programs that you might be aware of that could do that?
That's my only question, Madam Chair.
10:35 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Engineers Canada
If you look at your experience with the rental markets, why did those work? It's because people wanted the information. It was timely, accurate, and useful. Our current labour market doesn't get many of those ticks as you go along with it. Employers would be willing to participate—certainly the engineering employers—if you've got that same type of information that it was very timely, accurate, and useful to them. You will increase that whole participation in it.
I think that's really the type of model to consider. If you look at those types of systems that provide us regular feedback on other sectors of the economy and how those work, I think those are the types of systems we should modelling our labour market on, so that you get that information.
10:35 a.m.
Senior Scholar, Caledon Institute of Social Policy
I'm going to be a little abstract. The administrative data is data that is required for administrative purposes. In other words, you can't go on and do whatever it is you wanted to do unless you supply that data. The trick in developing a labour market information system that's in real time is to incorporate the information that's needed into the administrative data that is supplied regularly as people go about their daily work. Then you find a way to analyze and aggregate that data, most of which can happen automatically.
These are multi-billion dollar firms that are growing today right across the world whose job is to do exactly this task. What I'm suggesting is that we have a pressing need in the public sector and we need to bring the same kind of intelligence and investment to that task.
Actually the housing sector is a fairly interesting sector, because one of the things we don't have in the housing sector is a good price index, as you probably know better than I do.
So there is a job there. I would say the first step is to recognize that this is the job and to start undertaking it.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Thank you very much.
You have 10 seconds.
We'll now go back to Madame Groguhé.
10:35 a.m.
NDP
Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Mendelson, you brought up Kijiji. It is clear to us that it doesn't provide reliable information. It can't, especially since information has a shelf life, even more so when you're talking about the labour market. The only way data can really be useful when it is needed is if it can be analyzed daily and subjected to the proper scrutiny. That was just a little sidebar.
You suggested that some of the EI surplus be used to build a new structure of skills development and training, the Canada Skills Grant.
Could you elaborate on that proposal?
10:35 a.m.
Senior Scholar, Caledon Institute of Social Policy
First of all, don't misunderstand what I said on the Kijiji data. I think it was really dumb to use that and really bad.
What I was saying is that there is a core idea in using it that does make sense, in that this is the way that labour market vacancies are being reported there consistently. We can look at the way of adapting that core idea to be more effective. I'm not saying that Kijiji is a good way of doing it, but there is something there to learn from.
The other issue was on EI. I've written a couple of papers on the Canada job grant controversy, and the one you're referring to is the second one, which I wrote with Howard Green, and with Mike Luff from CLC. Our goal was to try to find a way to solve the incredible federal-provincial dispute over the Canada job grant, and the key seemed to be to find a way to pay for it other than taking the money out of what we saw and know to be pretty effective programs that the provinces were already offering. So we were robbing Peter to pay Paul, and it didn't seem a sensible way to increase skills. So we were hoping to be able to tap into some of the unused room in EI part II to more flexibly allow training.
I actually think, although I'm not clear on it, that some of the agreements with the provinces are doing that, or at least that's what they say they're doing. They say they're going to be using some of the funds or that the provinces will have the ability to tap some of the EI funds.
The second part of that was that you would have to increase the allocation of EI part II funds to training, so that you're not robbing Peter to pay Paul and taking more training money out. We're introducing a big, new training program called the Canada job grant and are trying to do it all from the existing pool of training money. It's inevitable that there are going to be other training programs cut. So the only way not to do that is to increase the amount.
Having said all of that—and I know that our time is short, so I feel constrained—there are real limitations to what you can do with the EI part II funds, and they are constitutional limitations. So it's quite difficult to use them flexibly. However, one of the suggestions was to go to a uniform 360 hours work contribution so that you'd expand the pool of people eligible for employment benefits under EI part II, and fiddle with the rules in that way. I think that might be possible.
10:40 a.m.
NDP
Sadia Groguhé NDP Saint-Lambert, QC
I want to revisit the importance of having access to sound data in real time.
You talked about the need for reliable statistical analysis. We also talked about reporting in terms of the merit and outcomes of the training programs put in place.
Could you comment briefly on that?
10:40 a.m.
Senior Scholar, Caledon Institute of Social Policy
It's important to recognize that you're not going to....
You know, if it's an experienced welder who needs a specialized welding course and does a three-week welding course to get his specialist training, that is going to be successful. But if it's a kid who dropped out of grade 11 and needs to get his GED, and he's been getting by on a few minimum-wage jobs here and there, you're going to have a hell of a lot more difficult task.
10:40 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair (Ms. Jinny Jogindera Sims) NDP Jinny Sims
Thank you very much.
Mr. Allen and Mr. Mendelson, thank you for your presentations and for the very rich conversation with the parliamentarians. I have to explain to you that these times are negotiated ahead of time. We try to stick to them as tightly as we can so that all parliamentarians get their fair share.
Thank you so much.
The meeting is adjourned.